The National for Sunday, August 18 — Jihadi Jack, Hong Kong, Oka Conflict


(*)>>>Andrew: TONIGHT JACK LETTS IS ACCUSED OF FIGHTING FOR ISIS AND NOW THE MAN DUBBED “JIHADI JACK” IS OFFICIALLY CANADA’S PROBLEM. THE BRITISH GOVERNMENT STRIPS THE DUAL CITIZEN OF HIS U.K. PASSPORT AND HIS CANADIAN FATHER TELLS CBC NEWS THAT HE WANTS HIM TO COME HERE.>>WE FEAR THAT EVERY TIME IS THE LAST TIME THAT WE CAN COME OUT FOR PROTESTS.>>Andrew: NO SIGN OF A SLOWDOWN. AFTER 11 WEEKS OF PRO-DEMOCRACY PROTESTS MORE THAN A MILLION PEOPLE HIT THE STREETS OF HONG KONG. AND HOW THE PROTESTS ARE DIVIDING FAMILIES HERE IN CANADA. (*)>>>AND OTTAWA KICKS OFF PRIDE WITH A BIG ANNOUNCEMENT.>>I’M VERY PROUD TO BE LIVING IN A CITY WITH AN OPENLY GAY MAYOR.>>Andrew: OTTAWA MAYOR JIM WATSON STEPS OUT OF THE CLOSET. BUT SAFETY FEARS DOMINATE THE WEEKEND AFTER A FAMILY EVENT IS CRASHED BY PROTESTERS.>>WE ARE HERE TO CELEBRATE PRIDE.>>Andrew: JUST THE LATEST IN THE NEED TO RAMP UP PRIDE SECURITY THIS SUMMER.>>>THIS IS “THE NATIONAL.” (*) (*)>>>CANADA SAYS THAT THE BRITISH GOVERNMENT IS DUCKING ITS RESPONSIBILITY BY STRIPPING A ACCUSED FORMER ISIS FIGHTER OF HIS BRITISH CITIZENSHIP. JACK LETTS, KNOWN AS “JIHADI JACK”, NOW HAS NO COUNTRY BUT CANADA TO CALL HIS OWN EVEN THOUGH HE’S NEVER LIVED HERE.>>TELL MY MOM I’M SORRY. TELL MY DAD I’M SORRY.>>Andrew: LETTS WAS BORN AND LIVED IN ENGLAND BUT AT 18, FIVE YEARS AGO, HE LEFT SCHOOL TO FIGHT FOR THE ISLAMIC STATE IN SYRIA. A FEW YEARS LATER IN 2017 HE WAS CAPTURED BY THE KURDISH FORCES WHERE HE REMAINS IN CUSTODY TO THIS DAY. IN JUNE HIS PARENTS WERE CONVICTED OF FUNDING TERRORISM AFTER SENDING THEIR SON ABOUT $360. BUT HERE’S THE CRITICAL POINT — JACK’S FATHER, JOHN, IS CANADIAN. THAT MAKES “JIHADI JACK” A CANADIAN CITIZEN. AND THAT’S WHY HE COULD NOW BE THIS COUNTRY’S PROBLEM. AND AS JAELA BERNSTIEN DISCOVERED, OTTAWA SAYS THAT IS NOT A WELCOME PROSPECT.>>Reporter: DO YOU FEEL BRITISH, DO YOU FEEL CANADIAN?>>I’M BRITISH, I’M BRITISH.>>Reporter: A BRITISH TV GROUP SPOKE WITH JACK LETTS IN FEBRUARY. THEY TRAVELLED TO THE PRISON IN SYRIA WHERE HE’S BEING HELD.>>IF THE U.K. ACCEPTS ME I’LL GO BACK TO U.K., IT’S MY HOME. BUT I DON’T THINK THAT’S GOING TO HAPPEN.>>Reporter: LETTS, DUBBED “JIHADI JACK” BY BRITISH MEDIA, GUESSED RIGHT. THE U.K. HAS NOW STRIPPED HIM OF HIS CITIZENSHIP. CANADA’S PUBLIC SAFETY MINISTER SAYS THAT THE GOVERNMENT HERE IS NOT IMPRESSED AND IT WON’T GO OUT OF ITS WAY TO HELP LETS. “CANADA IS DISAPPOINTED THAT THE UNITEED KINGDOM HAS TAKEN THIS UNILATERAL ACTION TO OFFLOAD THEIR RESPONSIBILITIES. THE GOVERNMENT IS AWARE OF SOME CANADIAN CITIZENS CURRENTLY DETAINED IN SYRIA. THERE IS NO LEGAL OBLIGATION TO FACILITATE THEIR RETURN. WE WILL NOT EXPOSE OUR CONSULAR OFFICIALS TO UNDUE RISK IN THIS DANGEROUS PART OF THE WORLD.” HERE’S ONE REASON THAT CANADA IS LEFT HOLDING THE BAG.>>Prime Minister Justin Trudeau: MR. HARPER, A CANADIAN IS A CANADIAN IS A CANADIAN.>>Reporter: THE LIBERAL GOVERNMENT IS OPPOSED OF STRIPPING DUAL CITIZENS OF THEIR CANADIAN CITIZENSHIP IF THEY ARE CONVICTED OF TERRORISM. BUT EVEN IF CANADA DOES NOTHING, THE PROBLEM COULD STILL REACH THIS COUNTRY.>>HE AND OTHERS WHO ARE INCARCERATED MAY SHOW UP AT A CANADIAN DIPLOMATIC MISSION SOMEWHERE ONE DAY AND REQUEST TRAVEL PAPERS TO CANADA. THEY MAY BE RELEASED TO SYRIAN AUTHORITIES AND LIKELY FIND THEIR DEATH. OR THEY’RE SIMPLY GOING TO BE RELEASED AND THEN ROAM THE WORLD AND POSSIBLY COMMIT THE SAME SORT OF HEINOUS CRIMES.>>Reporter: AND IF LETTS DOES FIND HIS WAY TO CANADIAN SOIL, PROSECUTING A CASE LIKE HIS WOULD BE A CHALLENGE.>>THERE’S CRIMES IN THE CRIMINAL CODE FOR LEAVING CANADA TO FACILITATE TERRORIST ACTIVITY OR TO COMMIT AN OFFENSE ON THE BEHALF OF A TERRORIST ORGINISATION. LETTS DOESN’T FALL WITHIN THAT CATEGORY. HE’S NOT SUSCEPTIBLE FOR PROSECUTION FOR THIS OFFENSE BECAUSE HE DID NOT LEAVE CANADA.>>Reporter: LETTS’ CANADIAN FATHER, JOHN, BELIEVES THAT IN CANADA HIS SOB WOULD GET A FAIR TRIAL.>>”I WOULD BE VERY HAPPY IF JACK WENT TO CANADA. IF HE’S DONE SOMETHING WRONG, I’M SURE THAT THE CANADIAN JUSTICE SYSTEM COULD FIND A WAY OF FINDING THE TRUTH FROM THE MISTRUTH AND PUNISH HIM IF HE’S DONE SOMETHING WRONG. AND THEN HE CAN REDEEM HIMSELF AND HELP. HE’S SEEN A LOT OF HORRORS, HE’S ANTI-ISIS, HE’S ANTI-EXTREMIST, AND LET HIM HELP.”>>Reporter: HE HOPES THAT THIS COUNTRY WILL FIND A WAY TO ACCEPT HIS SON. JAELA BERNSTIEN, CBC NEWS, MONTRÉAL.>>Andrew: NOW IF JACK LETTS IS INDEED CANADA’S PROBLEM HE’S CERTAINLY NOT THE ONLY ONE. THE GOVERNMENT CALLS THEM “CANADIAN EXTREME TRAVELLERS.” CITIZENS WHO HAVE TRAVELLED TO SUPPORT AND FACILITATE EXTREMIST ACTIVITIES AND IN SOME CASES TO DIRECTLY PARTICIPATE IN TERRORIST ACTS. LAST YEAR IT ESTIMATED THAT THERE WERE 190 OF THEM ABROAD, WITH ABOUT HALF IN TURKEY, SYRIA OR IRAQ. NOW EARLIER THIS YEAR CBC NEWS LEARNED ABOUT 30 CANADIANS ARE BEING HELD BY THE KURDS. ONLY A FEW ARE MALE FIGHTERS, THE REST ARE WIVES AND CHILDREN. THE GOVERNMENT HAS SAID THAT AN ADDITIONAL 60 EXTREME TRAVELLERS HAVE ALREADY RETURNED TO CANADA BUT THERE HAVE BEEN FEW PROSECUTIONS.>>The Hon. Ralph Goodale: NOW UNDER OUR LAW WE PROSECUTE UNDER THE CRIMINAL CODE WHEREVER THAT IS POSSIBLE. COLLECT THE EVIDENCE AND PRESENT IT IN COURT.>>Reporter: BUT THE EVIDENCE IS SOMETIMES HARD TO COLLECT.>>Andrew: EVIDENCE COLLECTED IN A CONFLICT ZONE IS EASY TO CHALLENGE IN COURT. AND ANY CONFESSION GIVEN WHILE IN CUSTODY COULD BE IN VIOLATION OF THE GENEVA CONVENTION. IN CASE YOU’RE WONDERING FRANCE HAS LED THE WAY IN BRINGING THESE SO-CALLED EXTREME TRAVELLERS TO JUSTICE. IT IS BELIEVED TO HAVE REPATRIATED BETWEEN 80 AND 130 CITIZENS SO THEY CAN BE TRIED IN COURT. MEANTIME, ISIS IS CLAIMING RESPONSIBILITY FOR AN EXPLOSION AT A WEDDING IN AFGHANISTAN THAT KILLED 63 PEOPLE AND WOUNDED MORE THAN 180. AND IT ALL COMES AS THE U.S. WORKS ON A PEACE PLAN AND RECONSIDERS ITS MILITARY COMMITMENT IN THAT TROUBLED COUNTRY. CBC’S PAUL HUNTER HAS MORE.>>Reporter: IT’S THE SICKENINGLY BLOODIED, SADLY FAMILIAR, EVIDENCE OF THE LATEST VIOLENCE IN AFGHANISTAN. AT A WEDDING CELEBRATION LAST NIGHT IN KABUL, A SUICIDE BOMBER KILLED MORE THAN 60 PEOPLE, WOUNDING NEARLY 200. AMONG THE STUNNED AND GRIEVING SURVIVORS — THE GROOM.>>[speaking foreign language]>>Reporter: I HAVE LOST HOPE, HE SAYS, I HAVE LOST MY BROTHER, MY FRIEND.>>[speaking foreign language]>>Reporter: IT WAS A BRUTAL ACT OF BARBARIC PEOPLE, SAID THIS MAN. AS HE STOOD IN A BUSY AND FAST-FILLING GRAVEYARD. THE VIOLENCE WAS THE WORST OF THE YEAR IN KABUL. ISIS HAS CLAIMED RESPONSIBILITY. IT FOLLOWS A SPATE OF OTHER ATTACKS THROUGHOUT AFGHANISTAN LATELY BY BOTH ISIS AND THE TALIBAN. THIS IS ONE OF THREE IN ONE DAY LAST MONTH THAT KILLED 15 AND WOUNDED 47. BUT 18 YEARS AFTER THE U.S. MILITARY MOVED INTO AFGHANISTAN, AFTER 9/11, THE EXPECTATION THIS WEEKEND IS THAT A NUMBER OF THE STILL REMAINING AMERICAN TROOPS THERE MAY SOON BE DRAWN HOME. DONALD TRUMP MET THIS WEEKEND WITH SENIOR ADMINISTRATION OFFICIALS ON NEGOTIATIONS WITH THE TALIBAN TOWARD THAT.>>President Donald Trump: WE HAVE THINGS UNDER CONTROL VERY WELL WITH A SMALL FORCE THAT WE COULD PROBABLY MAKE IT A LITTLE BIT SMALLER AND THEN WE’LL DECIDE.>>Reporter: BUT AFTER ALL THE FIGHTING AND AMID THE CONTINUED VIOLENCE, CRITICS WARN THAT THE TALIBAN IS NOT TO BE TRUSTED. UNDERLINED TRUMP TODAY, THE U.S. WOULD LIKELY LEAVE A SIGNIFICANT INTELLIGENCE PRESENCE THERE, EVEN IF SOME TROOPS ARE WITHDRAWN.>>President Donald Trump: WE’RE THERE FOR ONE REASON — WE DON’T WANT THAT TO BE A LABORATORY, OKAY? IT CAN’T BE A LABORATORY FOR TERROR AND WE’VE STOPPED THAT.>>Reporter: TRUMP SUGGESTED THAT THERE MAY BE MORE ON ALL OF THIS SOON. MEANWHILE BACK IN AFGHANISTAN, THE COUNTRY MARKS 100 YEARS OF INDEPENDENCE TOMORROW. CELEBRATIONS ARE PLANNED. PAUL HUNTER, CBC NEWS, WASHINGTON.>>Andrew: LET’S TURN NOW TO HONG KONG WHERE THE PROTESTERS TURNED OUT IN STAGGERING NUMBERS ONCE AGAIN THIS WEEKEND. ALL WITH A CLEAR SIMPLE MESSAGE FOR BEIJING — STOP INTERFERING WITH HONG KONG’S AFFAIRS. EVEN CONSERVATIVE ESTIMATES PEGGED THE TURNOUT WELL OVER A MILLION PEOPLE. NOW OUR CHRIS BROWN IS THERE, BUT AS YOU’LL HEAR, EVEN THOUGH IT WAS REMARKABLY PEACEFUL, PATIENCE IS WEARING THIN ON BOTH SIDES.>>[speaking foreign language]>>Reporter: EVERYONE WAS DRENCHED BY INCESSANT THUNDERSTORMS, BUT UNDER A CANOPY OF THOUSANDS OF COLOURFUL UMBRELLAS, A KEY DAY OF PROTESTS IN HONG KONG DREW AN ENORMOUS CROWD ANYWAY.>>FOR THE HONG KONG PEOPLE WE’RE NOT GOING TO STOP. IF THE GOVERNMENT IS NOT GOING TO RESPOND TO OUR REQUESTS.>>Reporter: POLICE HAD AUTHORIZED THE RALLY ONLY FOR VICTORIA PARK BUT PREDICTABLY THE OVERFLOW CROWD IGNORED THAT, MARCHING DOWN MAJOR ROADS AND CLOGGING UP BUSINESS DISTRICTS.>>[speaking foreign language]>>Reporter: THERE WAS CONCERN AFTER 11 LONG WEEKS OF PROTESTS AND DISRUPTION IN THIS CITY THAT PERHAPS A PRO-DEMOCRACY MOVEMENT HAD RUN OUT OF STEAM. A HUGE CROWD LIKE THIS SHOULD PUT AN END TO ANY THOUGHT OF THAT. NOTABLY IT WAS ALSO A PEACEFUL EVENT, UNLIKE SO MANY OTHER GATHERINGS OF LATE THAT HAVE ENDED IN VIOLENCE. THE LONGER THE DEMONSTRATIONS DRAG ON THOUGH, THE POLLS SUGGEST THAT ATTITUDES AMONG THE PRO-DEMOCRACY ADVOCATES ARE HARDENING THAT MAYBE SOME VIOLENCE TO FORCE CHANGE MIGHT BE INEVITABLE.>>THE GOVERNMENT CANNOT HEAR WHAT WE’RE SAYING SO THE PEOPLE HAVE TO THINK OF A WAY TO LET THE GOVERNMENT KNOW.>>Reporter: ALL THIS BEGAN OVER OPPOSITION TO THE SO-CALLED EXTRADITION BILL THAT WOULD EXTEND CHINESE JUSTICE INTO HONG KONG. BUT IT’S NOW A FAR BROADER PUSH AGAINST BEIJING’S GROWING INFLUENCE IN THE TERRITORY. HOWEVER, SILENCE FROM HONG KONG’S LEADERSHIP IS CLEARLY WEIGHING ON MANY HERE.>>WELL, I THINK THAT THERE’S A MIXED FEELING. AT ONE POINT I’M VERY PROUD OF THE HONG KONG PEOPLE. I’M VERY PROUD TO BE ONE OF THEM. BUT AT THE OTHER POINT I FEEL WORRIED, I FEEL SCARED. I DON’T KNOW ABOUT THE FUTURE AND I DON’T KNOW HOW THE ENTIRE MOVEMENT WILL GO TO.>>WE ARE AFRAID THAT EVERY TIME THAT IT’S THE LAST TIME THAT WE CAN COME OUT FOR PROTESTS.>>Reporter: SEVEN HOURS AFTER IT BEGAN, THE ENORMOUS CROWD WAS STILL MARCHING, EGGED ON BY LITTLE HICKS CHANG, JUST 4 YEARS OLD AND SUMMING UP THE FEELINGS OF SO MANY HERE WITH HIS CHABOTS “HONG KONG PEOPLE, FIGHTING.”>>Andrew: AND RIGHT NOW THE STREETS ARE CLEAR AND THE SUN IS UP IN HONG KONG WHERE IT’S MONDAY MORNING. SO, CHRIS, YOU WERE OUT THERE IN THE RAIN YESTERDAY FOR HOURS. TELL ME WHAT STOOD OUT FOR YOU THE MOST?>>Reporter: WELL, SO MANY REMARKABLE THINGS. AMONG THEM WAS JUST HOW PLEASED PEOPLE SEEMED TO BE TO SEE FOREIGN JOURNALISTS. OBVIOUSLY YOU COULD SEE HOW PACKED EVERYONE WAS, BUT WHEN WE HAD TO COME THROUGH WITH HEAVY GEAR PEOPLE SAW THAT AND THEY LITERALLY PARTED SO WE COULD GET BY. IN MANY CASES PEOPLE WERE HANDING US UMBRELLAS AS WELL. I THINK THAT SPEAKS AS WELL TO HOW KEEN PEOPLE ARE THAT THE REST OF THE WORLD SEE WHAT’S GOING ON HERE. ANDREW?>>Andrew: YEAH, THE WORLD IS WATCHING. SO WHAT COMES NEXT?>>Reporter: WELL, MORE PROTESTS PROBABLY NEXT WEEKEND, BUT ALSO SOME EFFORTS AT SOME ECONOMIC BOYCOTTS AS WELL. WE’VE SEEN WHAT A FINE LINE BUSINESSES HAVE HAD TO TREAD HERE. CATHAY PACIFIC, THE FLAG CARRIER HAS LOST A LOT OF BUSINESS IN MAINLAND CHINA FOR PERCEIVED SUPPORT FOR THE PROTESTERS. SO HERE THEY HAVE COME UP WITH LISTS OF FRIENDLY AND UNFRIENDLY COMPANIES, ASKING PEOPLE TO ONLY SHOP AT THE FRIENDLY ONES TO PUT MORE PRESSURE ON THE HONG KONG GOVERNMENT.>>Andrew: OKAY, CHRIS BROWN, THANK YOU VERY MUCH. NOW CANADA HASN’T INTERVENED DIRECTLY BUT IT HAS URGED CHINA TO SHOW RESTRAINT WITH PROTESTERS, TO WHICH THE CHINESE EMBASSY RESPONDED TONIGHT “STOP MEDDLING.” AS TANYA FLETCHER REPORTS, THAT TENSION IS ECHOED BY SOME CHINESE-CANADIANS ACROSS THIS COUNTRY.>>[speaking foreign language]>>FREEDOM SPEECH, EXPRESS WHAT YOU WANT TO SAY.>>Reporter: A SECOND STRAIGHT DAY OF PROTESTS ON THE STREETS OF VANCOUVER MIRROR THE ONGOING TENSIONS ON THE STREETS OF HONG KONG. PROTESTERS GATHERED IN FRONT OF THE CHINESE CONSULATE, DIVIDED AS MUCH BY THEIR POLITICS AS GRENVILLE STREET ITSELF. ON ONE SIDEWALK, HUNDREDS RALLY IN SUPPORT OF HONG KONG’S INDEPENDENCE, ON THE OTHER A COUNTER PROTEST PUSHING FOR CHINESE RULE. IT CAPS OFF A WEEKEND OF DUELING DEMONSTRATIONS THAT AT TIMES GREW HEATED.>>HONG KONG, STAY STRONG!>>Reporter: TENSIONS AND TEMPERS ERUPTED FROM BOTH SIDES.>>[SPEAKING CHINESE]>>Reporter: IT WAS A SIMILAR SCENE IN SEVERAL CITIES ACROSS CANADA.>>[CHANTS]>>Reporter: CROWDS OF PROTESTERS HAD POLICE ON HEIGHTENED ALERT IN CALGARY AND TORONTO. THE TURMOIL SPILLING OVER INTO THE STREETS AND EVEN INTO THE HOMES OF MANY CANADIANS.>>FIGHTS, ARGUMENTS, DIVISIONS GOING TO NO END. THAT IS CAUSING A LOT OF HATE AMONG OUR FAMILY. WHICH IS PRETTY SAD TO SEE THAT.>>Reporter: SORITAN WAS BORN AND RAISED IN HONG KONG. SHE MOVED TO VANCOUVER THREE YEARS AGO, AND SAYS THAT THE POLITICAL UNREST THERE HAS DIVIDED LOVED ONES HERE. HER GRANDFATHER RECENTLY ASKED THE FAMILY TO SIGN A PRO-CHINA PLEDGE RIGHT AT THE DINNER TABLE.>>WE KIND OF WAS ALMOST DONE OUR FOOD AND HE STARTED TO HAND OUT ALL OF THESE FORMS AND WANT US TO SIGN UP FOR SUPPORTING THE GOVERNMENT AND THE POLICE. SAYING THAT POLICE IS DOING THE GOOD JOB SO WE HAVE TO SIGN IT.>>Reporter: WHAT DID YOU DO?>>I REFUSED.>>Reporter: SHE SAYS EVEN THE PROSPECT OF A DIVIDED FAMILY WILL NOT STOP HER FROM SPEAKING OUT.>>THIS IS DEMOCRACY, RIGHT? THIS IS WHAT WE’RE TALKING ABOUT. THIS IS MY RESPONSIBILITY. IF I DON’T COME OUT, WHO CAN?>>Reporter: TANYA FLETCHER, CBC NEWS, VANCOUVER.>>Andrew: AND HERE’S SOME OTHER STORIES THAT WE’RE WATCHING THIS SUNDAY NIGHT ON “THE NATIONAL”…>>>THE CANADIAN WOMAN WHOSE FIANCÉ WAS SHOT DEAD IN NEW ZEALAND HAS RELEASED A STATEMENT PAYING TRIBUTE TO HIM. BIANCA BUCKLEY DESCRIBED SEAN MacKINNON AS THE LOVE OF HER LIFE AND HER GREATEST TEACHER AND PROTECTOR. THE TWO WERE SLEEPING IN THE COUPLE’S CAMPER VAN ON FRIDAY IN SWRIL, WHEN AN INTRUDER BROKE IN, KILLING MacKINNON. BUCKLEY MANAGED TO ESCAPE.>>>POLICE ARE APPEALING FOR HELP FOR FINDING A 4-YEAR-OLD BOY. GEORGE HAZARD-BENOIT WAS LAST SEEN FRIDAY BERRY PICKING WITH HIS PARENTS. SEARCH-AND-RESCUE TEAMS HAVE BEEN DEPLOYED AND MORE THAN A HUNDRED VOLUNTEERS HAVE TURNED OUT TO HELP TO FIND THE LITTLE BOY. IT’S BELIEVED THAT HE SPENT LAST NIGHT OUTSIDE.>>>WELL, CAPITAL PRIDE CELEBRATIONS IN OTTAWA STARTED WITH BIG NEWS THIS WEEKEND. THE CITY’S LONG-TIME MAYOR JIM WATSON ANNOUNCED THAT HE IS GAY. BUT HOURS LATER THERE WAS A PUBLIC INCIDENT OF ANTI-GAY HARASSMENT. AS IDLE MOUSSEA TELLS US, IT’S ALL MAKING FOR A DIFFERENT KIND OF PRIDE THIS YEAR.>>Reporter: OTTAWA MAYOR JIM WATSON SAYS THAT HE KNEW THAT HE WAS GAY AS A TEENAGER. BUT TALKING ABOUT IT OPENLY TOOK NEARLY 40 YEARS.>>MY HOPE IS THAT SOME OF THE PARENTS THAT HAVE REACHED OUT TO ME TODAY WHO HAVE SAID THAT THEY’RE SHARING MY STORY WITH THEIR KIDS, HOPEFULLY WILL MAKE IT EASIER FOR SOME YOUNG PEOPLE WHO, YOU KNOW, WHO ARE HAVING DOUBTS WHETHER THEY SHOULD SAY ANYTHING. I GUESS THAT MY MESSAGE IS, YOU KNOW, DON’T BE AFRAID TO COME OUT. DON’T FEEL RUSHED, BUT DON’T TAKE 40 YEARS EITHER.>>Reporter: WATSON SAYS THAT HE SHARED HIS SECRET WITH ONLY TWO FRIENDS BEFORE COMING OUT. ALTHOUGH HE SAYS THAT HE ALWAYS SUSPECTED MOST OF HIS FAMILY AND FRIENDS KNEW. NOW THAT HE’S LIVING HIS LIFE AS AN OPENLY GAY MAN, THE SUPPORT HE SAYS HAS POURED IN.>>THE CITY HAS RESPONDED IN A WAY THAT REALLY IS SO HEARTWARMING SO I AM VERY, VERY HAPPY FOR HIM.>>THERE’S A RISE OF INTOLERANCE AND HATE. IN THE CONTEXT OF THAT I THINK THAT YOUTH WHO ARE AFRAID TO BE THEMSELVES PUBLICLY WITH THEIR FRIENDS THEY HAVE ANOTHER ROLE MODEL TO LOOK UP TO TODAY. I THINK THAT IS REALLY SIGNIFICANT.>>Reporter: THAT INTOLERANCE THAT HE SPOKE ABOUT WAS A PARENT THIS WEEK.>>SO THIS CHILD…>>Reporter: A STORYTELLING EVENT FOR CHILDREN HOSTED BY A DRAG QUEEN WAS INTERRUPTED SATURDAY BY RELIGIOUS PROTESTERS WHO CALLED IT CHILD ABUSE.>>I’M VERY HAPPY WITH WHO I AM. AND I’M HAPPY TO TALK TO THESE KIDS TODAY AND LET THEM KNOW THAT EVERYTHING IS OKAY.>>Reporter: IN LIGHT OF THAT INCIDENT ORGANIZERS OF CAPITAL PRIDE SAY THEY HAVE REVIEWED THEIR SAFETY AND SECURITY PLANS WITH A WEEK-LONG ANNUAL FESTIVAL. THEY MADE A SPECIAL REQUEST TO POLICE TO BE ON HAND TODAY FOR A FAMILY PICNIC. EXTRA VOLUNTEERS SHOWED UP TOO.>>TODAY WE BROUGHT LOTS OF EXTRA FOLKS THAT HAVE SHOWN UP TO SHOW THEIR SUPPORT, TO BE IN SOLIDARITY WITH THE COMMUNITY. BUT ALSO JUST TO HELP, YOU KNOW, TO KEEP THE SPACE SAFE WITH A REALLY NICE COMMUNITY RESPONSE.>>Reporter: OTTAWA POLICE SAY THEY’LL MAKE THEMSELVES AVAILABLE TO ATTEND EVENTS ALL WEEK AS NECESSARY. TO ENSURE THAT PEOPLE FEEL SAFE. IDIL MUSSA, CBC NEWS, OTTAWA.>>Andrew: AND IT’S NOT JUST THE OTTAWA PRIDE EVENT THAT’S HAD TO RETHINK ITS APPROACH TO SECURITY AFTER SOME UGLY RUN-INS WITH PROTESTERS. HAMILTON POLICE LAUNCHED AN INVESTIGATION AFTER VIOLENCE BROKE OUT DURING PRIDE FESTIVITIES THERE A COUPLE MONTHS AGO. TENSIONS BETWEEN RELIGIOUS PROTESTERS AND PRIDE ATTENDEES ERUPTED. AND POLICE WERE ON HIGH ALERT IN TORONTO THAT MONTH TOO. THERE WAS VIOLENCE NEAR A TORONTO PRIDE EVENT WHEN SELF-IDENTIFIED CANADIAN NATIONALISTS SCUFFLED WITH PEOPLE.>>>OKAY, STILL AHEAD WE GO IN-DEPTH ON HONG KONG. WHAT’S NEXT IN THE STANDOFF BETWEEN THE PROTESTERS AND BEIJING?>>>BUT FIRST IN THE RUN-UP TO THE FEDERAL ELECTION, A LAND DISPUTE IN QUÉBEC IS FORCING THE LICK REALLIES TO TREAD CAREFULLY.>>I CAN UNDERSTAND WHY OTTAWA WOULD WANT TO BOOT THIS ISSUE INTO THE TALL GRASS BEYOND THE NEXT ELECTION. (*)>>Andrew: TOMORROW WILL MARK NINE WEEKS UNTIL ELECTION DAY ACROSS CANADA. BUT TODAY SOME PARTY LEADERS WERE MAKING THEMSELVES VERY VISIBLE AT MONTRÉAL’S PRIDE PARADE, WITH THE LIBERALS AND THE N.D.P. AND GREENS REPRESENTED. LAST NIGHT CONSERVATIVE LEADER ANDREW SCHEER WAS IN CHARLOTTETOWN TO TAKE IN A HORSERACING EVENT AND TO SUPPORT A LOCAL CANDIDATE. NOW THE NEWEST FEDERAL LEADER MAXIME BERNIER HELD A CONFERENCE IN GATINEAU. HE’S THE HEAD OF THE NEW PEOPLE’S PARTY OF CANADA. AND AS SALIMAH SHIVJI REPORTS, MUCH OF THE TALK THERE HAD TO DO WITH THE DECISION TO EXCLUDE BERNIER FROM THE UPCOMING LEADERS’ DEBATE.>>Reporter: MAXIME BERNIER GETS A HERO’S WELCOME IN THIS ROOM FULL OF PEOPLE’S PARTY OF CANADA CANDIDATES. MORE THAN 300 ALREADY NAMED, PREPPING FOR THE ELECTION. AS THEIR LEADER MAKES HIS CASE HIS PARTY SHOULDN’T BE ON THE MARGINS.>>YES, I’M READY TO DEBATE. [Applause]>>Reporter: A PLEA REPEATED AGAIN AND AGAIN, AIMED SQUARELY AT THE COMMISSIONER OF THE GROUP ORGANIZING THE LEADERS’ DEBATES THIS FALL. DAVID JOHNSTON DECIDED THAT HE HASN’T SEEN ENOUGH EVIDENCE “TO CONCLUDE THAT THE PEOPLE’S PARTY OF CANADA HAS A LEGITIMATE CHANCE OF ELECTING MORE THAN ONE CANDIDATE IN THE NEXT FEDERAL ELECTION,” LEAVING BERNIER OUT OF THE MIX FOR NOW. A DECISION THAT THE P.P.C. LEADER CALLS “A MISTAKE.”>>WE HAVE 40,000 MEMBERS ALL ACROSS THE COUNTRY. PEOPLE BELIEVE IN OUR VALUES AND THE WAY THAT WE’RE DOING POLITICS. SO WE MUST BE THERE. IT WON’T BE A REAL DEBATE IF WE ARE NOT THERE. AND I HOPE THAT HE WILL CHANGE HIS MIND.>>Reporter: HOPE IS WHAT BERNIER IS COUNTING ON ALONG WITH THE ARGUMENT THAT THE COMMISSION SHOULDN’T BE RELYING ON POLLS AS MUCH AS POLITICAL CONTEXT. AS HE WAITS FOR THE FINAL WORD A MONTH FROM NOW, BERNIER IS SETTING THE STAGE WITH SHOTS AGAINST HIS MAIN RIVAL, CONSERVATIVE LEADER ANDREW SCHEER.>>HE IS PANDERING TO EVERY INTEREST GROUP IN THIS COUNTRY, INCLUDING — AND THAT’S A SHAME — INCLUDING RADICAL ISLAMISTS.>>Reporter: WHILE SOME CANDIDATES ARE THINKING OF THE WORK TO COME ON THE GROUND.>>IT’S ALWAYS HARD WHEN YOU’RE PART OF A NEW PARTY THAT NOBODY KNOWS. SO DO YOU CALL THIS CAMPAIGN I DON’T KNOW. I’VE EXPLAINED TO PEOPLE WHY MAXIME BERNIER IS REALLY THE GUY WHO REPRESENTS REAL CHANGE.>>Reporter: THAT CHALLENGE IS REFLECTED IN THE POLLS THAT SHOW PARTY SUPPORT IS HOVERING AROUND 3%. BERNIER HAS A LONG WAY TO GO TO RAISE HIS PROFILE AND GET CANADIANS TO REMEMBER HIS PARTY’S NAME. SALIMAH SHIVJI, CBC NEWS, GATINEAU, QUÉBEC.>>Andrew: NOW OVER THE COURSE OF THE CAMPAIGN WE’LL TAKE YOU TO DIFFERENT PARTS OF THE COUNTRY TO HEAR ABOUT THE DIFFERENT THINGS THAT PEOPLE CARE ABOUT FROM RIDING-TO-RIDING. AND TONIGHT WE DRILL DOWN INTO A QUÉBEC RIDING WITH A UNIQUE ISSUE. IT INVOLVES A LONG-STANDING LAND DISPUTE BETWEEN THE VILLAGE OF OKA AND THE NEIGHBOURING MOHAWK COMMUNITY. AND THE WAY IN WHICH THE GOVERNING LIBERALS HANDLE THAT COULD HAVE A BIG IMPACT ON ELECTION DAY. OLIVIA STEFANOVICH EXPLAINS.>>Reporter: THE MESSAGE FROM THE TOP OF THE HILL THAT SEPARATES THESE TWO COMMUNITIES IS LOUD AND CLEAR. NEARLY THREE DECADES AFTER AN ARMED STANDOFF, SPARKED BY THE VILLAGE’S PLANS TO EXPAND A GOLF COURSE ON TOP OF THE MOHAWKS’ OF KANESATAKE CEMETERY, THE STRUGGLE OVER LAND RIGHTS CONTINUES.>>THIS IS WHAT WE HAVE LEFT.>>Reporter: THAT’S IT, OUT OF ALL OF THIS?>>YEAH, THAT’S ALL. THAT’S ALL THAT IS LEFT.>>Reporter: THIS TIME A NEW CHIEF IS WORKING WITH OTTAWA. AFTER A LOCAL DEVELOPER OFFERED TO GIVE PART OF THE DISPUTED TERRITORY BACK TO THE COMMUNITY. BUT THE PLAN IS FACING OPPOSITION FROM OKA’S MAYOR.>>HE’S AFRAID THAT HE’LL BE SURROUNDED BY MOHAWKS WHICH IS EXTREMELY RACIST.>>Reporter: AND THE MAYOR IS CALLING ON THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT TO BRING HIM INTO CONSULTATIONS.>>I THINK THAT THEY’RE TAKING A MORE CAUTIOUS APPROACH BECAUSE IT’S A HIGHLY EXPLOSIVE SITUATION. IF YOU GET TOO INVOLVED, IT BLOWS. IF YOU DON’T GET INVOLVED ENOUGH IT BLOWS.>>I CAN UNDERSTAND WHY OTTAWA WOULD WANT TO BOOT THIS ISSUE INTO THE TALL GRASS BEYOND THE NEXT ELECTION.>>Reporter: NORMAN SPECTOR WAS A KEY ADVISOR WITH THE MULRONEY GOVERNMENT DURING THE ORIGINAL OKA CRISIS WHO SAYS THAT THERE’S POLITICAL GAIN TO BE MADE HERE FOR THE LIBERALS. SPECTOR SAYS THEY HAVE TO TREAD CAREFULLY IF THEY WANT TO WIN THIS RIDING OVER THE BLOC QUÉBECOIS. IN A PROVINCE THAT COULD PLAY A DECIDING ROLE COME OCTOBER.>>IT’S FAIR TO SAY THAT WITHOUT STRONG, STRONG SUPPORT IN QUÉBEC THAT IT’S ALMOST UNIMAGINABLE THAT MR. TRUDEAU COULD BE RETURNED WITH A MAJORITY GOVERNMENT.>>Reporter: STILL, THE GOVERNMENT INSISTS PARTISANSHIP IS NOT A FACTOR.>>THIS IS A PROCESS THAT HAS BEEN GOING ON FOR YEARS. THIS IS ABOUT GETTING A RELATIONSHIP RIGHT, NOT ABOUT GETTING PEOPLE TO VOTE.>>Reporter: MARC MILLER IS OTTAWA’S LIAISON AND KNOWS FIRSTHAND HOW COMPLEX THIS SITUATION IS.>>WE COULD TALK ABOUT LEGAL COMPLEXITY BUT THERE’S A — THERE’S A SOCIAL, CULTURAL AND ECONOMIC COMPLEXITY TO THIS AND LAYER ON TOP OF THAT THE LEVELS OF GOVERNMENT, PROVINCIAL AND FEDERAL. WHICH, LET’S BE HONEST, HAVE FAILED IN THE PAST 30 YEARS.>>I LOVE THIS LAND. I HATE TO SEE HOW IT’S BEING ABUSED.>>Reporter: THE PEOPLE OF KANESATAKE SAY THEY JUST WANT THEIR RIGHTS RESPECTED.>>THIS SHOULD BE AN EXAMPLE OF RECONCILIATION AND IT’S NOT.>>Reporter: AND THAT COULD TIP THE BALANCE THIS FALL. OLIVIA STEFANOVICH, CBC NEWS, KANESATAKE.>>Andrew: STILL AHEAD ON “THE NATIONAL”…>>>WHAT ARE THE OPTIONS TO END THE MASS DEMONSTRATIONS IN HONG KONG? WE’LL GO IN-DEPTH WITH THAT VERY QUESTION.>>>PLUS, OVERWORKED AND UNDER STRESS. HOW WE HAVE LET CAREERS DOMINATE AND DETERMINE OUR LIVES.>>>AND LATER WHY YOU SHOULD NEVER GET TOO CLOSE TO A GLACIER. (*)>>WE — WE SURVIVED BUT THAT WAS INSANE. WE ARE SOAKING WET. (*) (*)>>[SPEAKING CHINESE]>>WE JUST WANT HONG KONG TO STAY HONG KONG. WE’RE NOT DEMANDING SOMETHING ELSE OR SOMETHING EXTRA.>>Andrew: ANOTHER MASSIVE PRO-DEMOCRACY DEMONSTRATION IN HONG KONG THIS WEEKEND. EVEN CONSERVATIVE ESTIMATES PUT THE TURNOUT AT MORE THAN A MILLION PEOPLE. FOR 11 WEEKS NOW, PROTESTERS HAVE MARCHED AGAINST BEIJING’S GROWING INFLUENCE IN HONG KONG’S AFFAIRS BUT NOT EVERYONE IN THE CITY SUPPORTS THE MOVEMENT. THERE HAVE BEEN PRO-BEIJING RALLIES AS WELL, AND MANY LOCALS, INCLUDING FRUSTRATED BUSINESS OWNERS, JUST WANT ORDER RESTORED.>>[SPEAKING CHINESE]>>Andrew: EVEN IF I HAD TO CLOSE MY SHOP, I SUPPORT THE POLICE, SHE SAYS. MEANWHILE BEIJING’S PRESENCE IS POWERFUL AND GROWING. CHINESE TROOPS HAVE BEEN RUNNING DRILLS IN NEIGHBOURING SHENZHEN FOR DAYS NOW. SO THE STAKES ARE CLEARLY HIGH FOR BOTH THE PROTESTERS AND FOR BEIJING. AND JUST THINK HOW PRECARIOUS IT ALL IS. ONE MAJOR INCIDENT, EVEN A MISUNDERSTANDING, COULD PUSH THINGS TO A DANGEROUS EDGE. SO WHERE DO THINGS GO FROM HERE? WELL, LET’S TAKE A LOOK AT THE SITUATION FROM BOTH SIDES. JOINING ME NOW WE HAVE ANDREA CHUN, A LAWYER AND A MEDIA COMMENTATOR. AND WENRAN JIANG, A CHINA EXPERT AND A PROFESSOR FROM THE UNIVERSITY OF BRITISH COLUMBIA’S SCHOOL OF PUBLIC POLICY AND GLOBAL AFFAIRS. THANK YOU BOTH FOR BEING HERE. ANDREA, I’LL START WITH YOU AND LET’S TALK ABOUT THE CROWD SIZE FIRST OF ALL. BY ALL ACCOUNTS THE ESTIMATES ARE ALL OVER THE MAP BUT IT’S A LARGE CROWD. WHAT DOES THAT TELL YOU?>>A HUGE CROWD, WELL OVER A MILLION, I’M POSITIVE OF THAT, TELLS ME THAT EVEN THOUGH THERE’S BEEN SO MUCH TALKS OF VIOLENT BEHAVIOUR IN THE LAST FEW WEEKS, PUBLIC OPINION IS SOLIDLY BEHIND THESE FIVE DEMANDS. AND PROTESTERS CAN ACTUALLY GO ON THE STREET AND DEMONSTRATE THAT THEY WANT SOMETHING PEACEFULLY, RATIONALLY AND WITHOUT VIOLENCE. SO IT TELLS ME THAT THIS A CRITICAL POINT IN THE TURN OF EVENTS IN THIS WHOLE MOMENTUM.>>Andrew: RIGHT AND PERHAPS THAT THEIR MOMENTUM HAS CONTINUED, GIVEN THAT THIS HAS GONE ON FOR SO LONG. WENRAN, WHAT DOES THAT TELL YOU, BUT IF YOU COULD TALK ABOUT THE BEHAVIOUR OF BOTH SIDES, RIGHT, THE BEHAVIOURS OF THE PROTESTERS THAT HAVE UNFOLDED PEACEFULLY, BUT ALSO THE POLICE RESPONSE TO IT.>>I THINK WE HAVE LAST WEEK THE VIOLENCE PLAY OUT AND BOTH SIDES ARE DEFLECTING. NOT ONLY AS ANDREA SAID THAT PROTESTERS ARE MORE PEACEFUL, CONSTRAINED. BUT, YOU KNOW, THE POLICE HAVE REFLECTED ON THEMSELVES MORE OF A LESS CONFRONTATIONAL APPROACH. HONG KONG POLICE ARE HIGHLY TRAINED. IF THINGS ARE NOT OUT OF HAND THEY SHOULD BE ABLE TO HANDLE THAT. AT THE SAME TIME WE ALSO HAVE SATURDAY A BIG RALLY CALLING FOR UNITY. SOME PEOPLE CALL THEM PRO-CHINESE GOVERNMENT. I THINK THAT THOSE ARE ALSO HONG KONG ORDINARY PEOPLE WHO ARE COMING TO SAY ONE MESSAGE — DON’T GET OUT OF HAND AND PROTEST PEACEFULLY.>>Andrew: BUT WHAT YOU SAY THEN IS CHINA — MAINLAND’S CHINA’S LONG TERM STRATEGY IN I CAN’T IMAGINE THEY’D BE CONTENT TO HAVE THIS SITUATION UNFOLD FOR EVEN LONGER THAN IT HAS ALREADY.>>I THINK THAT SO FAR THE CHINESE CENTRAL GOVERNMENT HAS SHOWN SOME CONSTRAINTS. THEY’RE NOT SAYING — THEY’RE NOT PREPARED FOR ANY FURTHER VIOLENCE. THEY’RE SHOWING FORCE IN THE BROADER CITY OF SHENZHEN, AND ANTI-POLICE GEAR, YOU KNOW, AND ANTI-RIOT GEARS AND ALL OF THAT. BUT AT THE SAME TIME I DON’T THINK THAT THEY’RE READY TO JUST ROLL IN THE TROOPS. THAT’S VERY UNWISE. I’M PRETTY SURE THAT THINGS ARE NOT OUT OF CONTROL, ESPECIALLY IN THIS WEEKEND’S DEMONSTRATIONS SHOWED THAT THERE’S NO EXCUSE FOR THE CHINESE GOVERNMENT TO DO ANYTHING OTHER THAN TO WAIT IT OUT. SO, THEREFORE, THE LONG-TERM STRATEGY I THINK FOR THEM IS PROBABLY TO JUST WAIT AND SEE.>>Andrew: RIGHT. SO THEN, ANDREA, I THINK THAT IT RAISES THE QUESTION, WHO IS EXERTING MORE PRESSURE ON WHOM?>>I DON’T AGREE WITH EVERYTHING THAT PROFESSOR JIANG HAS SAID, BECAUSE I THINK THAT CHINA HAS COME OUT AND USED WORDS LIKE TERRORISM OR REVOLUTION, ETC. BUT I THINK THAT THE PROTESTERS HAVE SUCCESSFULLY NOT BE VIOLENT TODAY AND, THEREFORE, THERE’S NO EXCUSE OR GROUNDS FOR CHINA TO MOVE IN. AND THAT’S VERY, VERY IMPORTANT IN THIS DEMAND FOR ALL OF THE FIVE DEMANDS OF THE PROTESTERS.>>Andrew: SURE. BUT WHAT IS THE PROTESTERS’ ENDGAME HERE? BECAUSE, I MEAN, YOU HAVE MENTIONED THE FIVE DEMANDS BUT WE HAVE SEEN PROTESTS LIKE THIS. NOT JUST CHINESE OR HONG KONG PROTESTS, BUT PROTESTS AROUND THE WORLD THAT HAVE FIZZLED OUT AND FALLEN SHORT OF THE GOAL. SO, I MEAN, IS IT REALISTIC TO THINK THAT THEY CAN FORCE CHANGE?>>WHETHER IT’S REALISTIC OR NOT, I THINK THAT THE HONG KONG PEOPLE ARE DETERMINED THIS TIME TO KEEP ON FIGHTING. WHETHER THE END WILL BE ACHIEVED SOON, SOME SAY IT MIGHT TAKE MONTHS, IF NOT YEARS. NOW THERE’S ALSO TALK THAT CHINA WOULD LIKE THIS QUELLED BY OCTOBER 1st WHICH IS THE 70th ANNIVERSARY OF THE BIRTH OF THE MODERN REGIME. NOW HAVING SAID ALL OF THAT, I THINK THAT RIGHT NOW WE’RE AT A VERY CRITICAL JUNCTURE BECAUSE THE PROTESTERS HAVE TURNED PEACEFUL NOW. AND THE BALL IS IN WHO’S COURT? WHAT ARE WHAT ARE THEY GOING TO DO? I THINK THAT THIS MIGHT CONTINUE AND, THEREFORE, CHINA HAS A COUPLE CHOICES. OPINIONS DID NOT TURN. IF THE PROTESTS DO NOT TURN VIOLENT, THERE IS NO REASON TO USE EXCESSIVE FORCE OR EVEN COME IN. SO WILL THEY BACK DOWN? THE EASIEST DEMAND TO GIVE IN IS TO INSTITUTIONALIZE A PUBLIC INQUIRY. AND THE SECOND MIGHT BE TO SACRIFICE CARRIE LAM, THE CHIEF EXECUTIVE. NOW IF BOTH SIDES DON’T BLINK, I DON’T THINK THAT THIS SITUATION IS GOING TO RESOLVE ON ITS OWN OR FIZZLE OUT. I DON’T SEE THAT WITH OVER A MILLION PEOPLE OUT, I JUST DON’T SEE THAT.>>Andrew: AND, WENRAN, I WILL GIVE YOU THE LAST ANSWER. HOW DOES THIS END, THE OUTCOME IN YOUR MIND?>>WELL, THE LIKELY END FOR THE MAINLAND SIDE I SEE AS LONG AS THERE’S NO VIOLENCE — THE VIOLENT ESCALATION — I THINK THAT FOR HONG KONG PROTESTERS THE QUESTION THEN WHAT IS THE ENDGAME HERE, HOW TO ACHIEVE THE GOALS THAT YOU WANT TO ACHIEVE WITHOUT TRIGGERING A VIOLENT CRACKDOWN POTENTIALLY BY EITHER THE HONG KONG AUTHORITIES OR THE CHINESE STATE. I THINK THAT IS A VERY TRICKY QUESTION. I DO NOT SEE THE ROUTES FORWARD SHOULD BE SOMETHING LIKE 30 YEARS AGO IN TIANANMEN. THIS SHOULD BE PLAYED OUT MORE BY CIVIL SOCIETY, DIALOGUE AND PEACEFUL PROTESTS. I THINK THAT CHINA SHOULD COMPROMISE IN SOME WAYS TO CAVE INTO THE DEMANDS OF THE CIVIL SOCIETY IN HONG KONG. AND I THINK THAT IS GOOD FOR KEEPING THE ONE COUNTRY, TWO SYSTEMS SO FAR HAS WORKED AND MAKE IT CONTINUE TO WORK.>>Andrew: OKAY, WELL, WE HAVE SOME DIVERGENT OPINIONS HERE BUT FASCINATING AND INCITEFUL ONES AS WELL. THANK YOU FOR BEING HERE.>>THANK YOU.>>THANK YOU.>>Andrew: JUST AHEAD, WORK IN THE 21st CENTURY. HOW WE THINK ABOUT OUR JOBS CAN MAKE THAT BURNOUT FEELING EVEN WORSE.>>MY PROBLEM WITH SAYING WORK HARD AND YOU’LL BE SUCCESSFUL IS WHEN YOU FLIP IT, WHAT YOU’RE REALLY TELLING PEOPLE, IF YOU’RE NOT SUCCESSFUL THEN YOU MUST NOT BE BE WORKING HARD ENOUGH.>>Andrew: OUR CONVERSATION WITH BEST DIAGNOSE SELLING>>I’M JAYME POISSON AND TOMORROW ON CBC’S DAILY NEWS PODCAST “FRONTBURNER,” ONE WOMAN’S DEVASTATING EXPERIENCE WITH BREAST IMPLANTS LINKED TO A RARE FORM OF CANCER. SUBSCRIBE WHEREVER YOU GET YOUR PODCASTS. (*)>>Andrew: WELL, IT MAY BE PAINFUL TO ADMIT BUT SUMMER IS WINDING DOWN. SOON IT WILL BE BACK TO SCHOOL, BACK TO WORK, BACK TO STRESS. AND FOR A GROWING NUMBER OF CANADIANS BACK TO POTENTIAL BURNOUT. NOW FROM THE CORPORATE TOWER TO THE FACTORY, TO THE HOME OFFICE, NO MATTER WHERE YOU MIGHT WORK, BURNOUT HAS BECOME A SERIOUS HEALTH ISSUE. SO MUCH SO THAT THE WORLD HEALTH ORGINISATION ADDED “BURNOUT” TO ITS INTERNATIONAL CLASSIFICATION OF DISEASES THIS PAST SPRING. BUT CAN IT BE MANAGED? WELL, BACK IN APRIL I SAT DOWN WITH A LEADING CANADIAN AUTHOR AND EXPERT WHO BELIEVES THAT WE CAN TAKE BACK CONTROL.>>TODAY PRODUCTIVITY HAS BECOME AN INDIVIDUAL PURSUIT.>>Andrew: RAHAF HARFOUSH CHTS SHE’S A CANADIAN THAT YOU MAY HAVE NEVER HEARD OF BEFORE BUT YOU MAY RELATE TO THE MESSAGE SHE’S SPREADING. WE WORK TOO DAMNED HARD. AND IN THE 21st CENTURY THE WAY THAT OUR VERY JOBS ARE CHANGING FROM THE FACTORY FLOOR TO THE KNOWLEDGE ECONOMY, TO WHO KNOWS, WE’RE ON A FAST TRACK TO TROUBLE. CONSIDER THIS — HARFOUSH FIRST MADE A NAME FOR HERSELF VOLUNTEERING ON BARACK OBAMA’S 2008 PRESIDENTIAL CAMPAIGN. THAT EXPERIENCE DROVE HER FIRST BOOK, AND SINCE THEN SHE’S BECOME A “THE NEW YORK TIMES” BESTSELLING AUTHOR, TRAVELLING THE WORLD, STUDYING AND SPEAKING ABOUT THE IMPACT OF TECHNOLOGY, ON PEOPLE, ON CULTURE. AND INCREASINGLY ON HOW WE DEFINE WORK AND HOW WORK DEFINES US. BUT FAST-FORWARD TO 2016. HER LIFE CAME TO A CRASHING HALT. SHE WAS PARALYSED BY BURNOUT. AND AS A SELF-DESCRIBED CREATIVE WHO COULD NO LONGER CREATE, SHE HAD TO ASK HERSELF A QUESTION — NOW WHAT? HER SOUL SEARCHING LED TO HER LATEST BOOK “HUSTLE AND FLOAT” AND I SAT DOWN WITH RAHAF HARFOUSH IN TORONTO. RAHAF, VERY NICE TO HAVE A CHANCE TO CHAT WITH YOU.>>I’M SO EXCITED TO BE HERE.>>Andrew: SO WHAT WAS IT THEN, YOU TALK ABOUT KIND OF HITTING THAT BREAKING POINT. IN THE MOMENT, I MEAN, AS YOU WERE OVERWORKING, DID YOU KNOW, DID YOU REALIZE THAT IT WAS UNHEALTHY AND WAS HAVING A HARMFUL IMPACT?>>FOR A LARGE PART OF MY WORKING LIFE IT WAS VERY MUCH FOCUSED AROUND THIS IDEA THAT I HAD TO DO MORE AND MORE AND MORE TO REACH THIS SUCCESS. FOR ME WHAT ENDED UP HAPPENING WAS I ENDED UP OVERWORKING AND THEN SUFFERING FROM SEVERE HEALTH SETBACKS — BURNOUT, YOU KNOW, INSOMNIA AND NOT BEING ABLE TO EAT, NOT BEING ABLE TO SLEEP, LOSING MY HAIR. AND ONCE YOU HIT THAT PHYSICAL WALL YOU’RE LIKE, WELL, CLEARLY THE STRATEGY THAT I’M GOING TO OUTWORK EVERYONE ELSE BY DOING IT HARDER AND LONGER, THAT’S NOT GETTING ME CLOSER TO WHERE I WANT TO GO. AND MORE THAN THAT IT’S RISKING EVERYTHING THAT IS IMPORTANT TO ME, WHICH IS NOT ONLY MY MENTAL AND EMOTIONAL AND PHYSICAL WELL-BEING BUT MY ABILITY TO GENERATE IDEAS THAT I NEED TO DO TO KEEP PAYING MY RENT AND TO KEEP BEING ABLE TO WORK.>>Andrew: SO PART OF ARRIVING AT THE POINT THAT I THINK THAT YOU HAVE ARRIVED AT A THINK IS SUMMED UP IN THE TITLE OF THE BOOK WHICH IS “HUSTLE AND FLOAT.” CAN YOU FIRST EXPLAIN WHAT THAT MEANS?>>SO “HUSTLE AND FLOAT “IS A TERM THAT I HEARD FROM A FAMILY FRIEND WHO WAS A RIVER GUIDE, IT’S A WHITE WATER RAFTING TERM. AND IT’S USED TO DESCRIBE THE PERFECT TRIP. SO THE PERFECT WHITE WATER RAFTING TRIP HAS TWO PARTS. THERE’S THE PART WHERE YOU HAVE TO HUSTLE, WHERE THERE’S RAPIDS, AND YOU HAVE TO PADDLE AS HARD AS YOU CAN TO NAVIGATE AND TO AVOID OBSTACLES AND GET WHERE YOU WANT TO GO BUT THERE’S THE EQUALLY IMPORTANT PART OF THE TRIP WHERE YOU LIFT YOUR PADDLES OUT OF THE WATER AND YOU LET THE RIVER DO THE WORK. AND THE RIVER CARRIES YOU. AND IF YOU HAVE TOO MUCH HUSTLE YOU’LL GET EXHAUSTED AND MAKE MISTAKES, WHICH IS QUITE DANGEROUS. IF YOU HAVE TOO MUCH FLOW IT’S BORING AND THEN YOU DON’T REALLY HAVE ANY CONTROL WHERE YOU GO AND END UP. SO I THINK THAT FOR CREATIVE PROFESSIONALS THAT IS THE PERFECT WAY TO DESCRIBE HOW WE NEED TO WORK AND HOW WE CAN BE CREATIVE.>>Andrew: RIGHT. AND SO THAT’S PERHAPS MY NEXT QUESTION — WHO PARTICULARLY SHOULD BE HUSTLING AND FLOATING?>>I MEAN, I THINK THAT ALL OF US. IN THE BOOK I HAVE USED THE WORD “PRODUCTIVE CREATIVE” AS A TERM. BECAUSE I THINK THAT FOR THE MAJORITY OF PEOPLE THAT WORK IN KNOWLEDGE ECONOMY, WHETHER YOU’RE AN ACCOUNTANT OR A LAWYER OR A TEACHER OR A JOURNALIST OR A WRITER OR A STRATEGIST, WE’RE ALL BEING PAID TO BE CREATIVE AT WORK. NOW THAT IS SOMETHING THAT IS A SKILLSET THAT WE’RE FINANCIALLY COMPENSATED FOR. SO THAT MEANS THAT WE NEED TO START LOOKING AT HOW TO DESIGN SYSTEMS THAT ENABLE US TO DO THE BEST QUALITY LEVEL OF WORK, KNOWING THAT HISTORICALLY ALL OF THE SYSTEMS THAT WE ARE FORCED INTO ACTUALLY COME FROM INDUSTRIAL REVOLUTION ERA TYPE THINKING, MEANING THAT IT WAS DESIGNED FOR A TYPE OF WORK THAT WE DON’T DO ANYMORE.>>Andrew: BUT EXPLAIN THAT FOR ME, I MEAN, THE TENSION BETWEEN BEING CREATIVE AND BEING PRODUCTIVE.>>WHAT’S INTERESTING IS THAT WHEN YOU LOOK AT HOW MANAGEMENT THINKING DEVELOPED OVER TIME, IT CAME REALLY ON THE FLOOR FACTORIES AND IT CAME AROUND THIS IDEA OF PRODUCTIVITY IS LINKED TO CONTINUOUS OUTPUT. YOU WENT ON THE ASSEMBLY LINE AND YOU DID X AMOUNT OF WIDGETS IN YOUR EIGHT-HOUR SHIFT. AND EVERY SINGLE DAY AT THE END OF THE DAY YOU HAD THE SAME AMOUNT OF PRODUCT THAT YOU’RE RESPONSIBLE FOR PRODUCING. THAT’S HOW IT WAS FOR A LONG TIME. WITH KNOWLEDGE WORK WE DON’T PRODUCE WIDGETS, WE DON’T PRODUCE CARS ON THE ASSEMBLY LINE. I CAN’T SAY TO YOU, HOW MANY IDEAS ARE YOU GOING TO GET DONE? HOW MANY IDEAS ARE YOU GOING TO PRODUCE IN AN EIGHT-HOUR DAY? IT DOESN’T WORK LIKE THAT. BUT THOSE WERE THE BEST WAYS TO MANAGE PEOPLE SO WE SHOVED THEM INTO SYSTEMS THAT WERE DESIGNED FOR A COMPLETELY DIFFERENT TYPE OF WORK. SO SUDDENLY WE HAVE THIS EXPECTATION WHERE YOU HAVE TO BE “PRODUCTIVE,” PRODUCTIVE BEING CONTINUOUS OUTPUT. PRODUCTIVE BEING THAT YOU HAVE TO JUSTIFY EVERY MINUTE OF YOUR WORKING DAY. YOU’RE IN A CALL, YOU’RE IN A MEETING, YOU’RE DOING THE WORK. AND ANYTHING THAT WASN’T CONSIDERED UNDER THE UMBRELLA OF PRODUCTIVITY WAS FROWNED UPON. IF YOU’RE TAKING A COFFEE BREAK AND OUT FOR A WALK AND IF YOUR MANAGER DOESN’T SEE YOU SITTING AT YOUR DESK FROM 9:00 TO 5:00 IT’S CONSIDERED A WASTE OF TIME. BUT WHAT WE NOW KNOW ABOUT HOW THE BRAIN WORKS, WE NEED THOSE BREAKS. AND THAT NEEDS TO BE CONSIDERED A PART OF THE PROCESS AND NOT A DIVERSION FROM THE END GOAL.>>Andrew: SO WORKING HARD IS NOT NECESSARILY WORKING SMART. BUT HOW DOES THAT SQUARE WITH SOME OF THE BIGGEST SUCCESS STORIES OF OUR TIME? STEVE JOBS, A 14-HOUR WORKDAY, JUST A NORMAL DAY. AND ELON MUSK, MAKING HIS BED LITERALLY ON THE FACTORY FLOOR. BILL GATES, OPRAH, ALL ICONS OF A SUPER HUMAN WORK ETHIC.>>AND THE NUMBER ONE LESSON THAT I CAN OFFER YOU WHERE YOUR WORK IS CONCERNED IS THIS — BECOME SO SKILLED, SO VIGILANT AND SO FLAT OUT FANTASTIC AT WHAT YOU DO THAT YOUR TALENT CANNOT BE DISMISSED. [Applause]>>REGARDLESS HOW THEY GET IT DONE, I THINK THAT MOST PEOPLE, THE SCIENCE SHOWS, THAT BURNOUT IS A REAL THING. THAT THESE MODELS OF SUSTAINED OVERWORK OVER A LONG PERIOD OF TIME WILL CATCH UP WITH YOU. THERE WILL BE PEOPLE WHO HAVE HEART ATTACKS. YOU WILL HAVE DEPRESSION AND ANXIETY. YOU WILL SUFFER THE CONSEQUENCES IF YOU BURN OUT. BURNOUT IS A REAL PHYSICAL THING. SO I THINK THAT IT’S VERY MISLEADING TO LOOK AT THESE PEOPLE AND SAY, OH, WELL, OVERWORK WORKS AND THEY HAVE IT DONE. BECAUSE I OFTEN THANK THE MEDIA ONLY SHOWS US ONE PART OF THE PICTURE. I GO BACK TO BEYONCÉ AND YOU LOOK AT BEYONCÉ AND YOU LOOK AT EVERYTHING THAT SHE’S ACCOMPLISHED — WEALTH, FAME, POWER, RIGHT? BUT SHE HERSELF WAS SO BURNT OUT IN 2011 THAT SHE HAD TO TAKE AN ENTIRE YEAR OFF. I THINK THAT MANY TIMES WE TALK ABOUT THE LIGHT PART — LIKE THE VERY EXCITING PART — WE DON’T TALK ABOUT THE SHADOWS. BECAUSE WHEN YOU LOOK AT THE PERCENTAGE OF ARTICLES THAT WERE WRITTEN ABOUT HER, THERE WAS LIKE SO MANY THAT WERE WRITTEN ABOUT HER WORK ETHIC, SO MANY WRITTEN ABOUT HOW HARD SHE WORKS, HOW LONG SHE WORKS AND VERY FEW WRITTEN ABOUT THE FACT THAT SHE HAD TO TAKE AN ENTIRE YEAR OFF TO PHYSICALLY AND MENTALLY RECOVER.>>Andrew: BUT I FEEL THAT THERE MUST BE A WHOLE SUB-SET OF PEOPLE WHO KIND OF WEAR THAT AS A BADGE OF HONOUR TOO, RIGHT? THEY DERIVE A SENSE OF PRIDE FROM THE FACT THAT THEY’RE WORKING SO HARD.>>THIS IS WHAT IS THE REALLY FASCINATING THING IS THAT CULTURALLY THE RITUALS THAT WE HAVE DEVELOPED AROUND HOW WE TALK ABOUT WORK AND AROUND HOW WE LINK OUR IMPORTANCE TO HOW HARD WE WORK — NOT EVEN JUST A JOB THAT WE DO, THAT’S NOT EVEN IMPORTANT ENOUGH ANYMORE. IT’S NOT JUST THE JOB THAT WE DO, BUT HOW HARD WE WORK AT IT. THAT GOES COUNTER TO ALL OF THE ACTUAL THINGS THAT WE NEED TO DO TO BE HEALTHY AND TO BE MORE CREATIVELY PROSPEROUS.>>Andrew: WHEN YOU SAY THAT I’M THINKING WHEN YOU GO TO A PARTY WHAT IS THE FIRST QUESTION THAT YOU ASK SOMEONE –>>WHAT DO YOU DO?>>Andrew: WHAT DO YOU DO. SO IS THAT — TO WHAT EXTENT THEN HAVE OUR IDENTITIES BECOME SO INTERTWINED WITH WORK? I MEAN, YOU ARE WHAT YOU DO? IS THAT KIND OF WHAT YOU’RE GETTING AT HERE?>>MOST PEOPLE ARE WORKING FOR THE MAJORITY OF THEIR DAY SO, OF COURSE, THAT’S GOING TO BE THE THING THAT YOU FALL BACK ON WHEN YOU CONSIDER YOUR IDENTITY AND WHO YOU ARE. BECAUSE MANY PEOPLE AT THE END OF A LONG DAY DON’T HAVE THE ENERGY OR THE TIME TO BE ABLE TO DEVELOP ALL OF THESE OTHER DIFFERENT PARTS OF THEIR IDENTITY BECAUSE THEY’RE TIRED, BECAUSE THEY’RE WORKING 80 WORK WEEKS.>>Andrew: SO SOMEONE LIKE OPRAH WHO SAYS WORK HARD AND SUCCESS WILL COME, YOU WOULD SAY?>>MY PROBLEM WITH SAYING “WORK HARD AND YOU’LL BE SUCCESSFUL” IS WHEN YOU FLIP IT YOU’RE TELLING PEOPLE IF YOU’RE NOT SUCCESSFUL THEN YOU MUST NOT BE WORKING HARD ENOUGH. I THINK THAT IS A VERY SAD MESSAGE, A VERY DANGEROUS MESSAGE, BECAUSE A LOT OF PEOPLE — THERE ARE PEOPLE IN THIS COUNTRY THAT WILL WORK THREE PART-TIME JOBS JUST TO MAKE ENDS MEET. ARE THEY NOT WORKING HARD ENOUGH? THERE ARE PEOPLE WHO, YOU KNOW, ON TOP OF WORKING A FULL-TIME JOB HAVE AGING PARENTS TO TAKE CARE OF, HAVE, YOU KNOW, FAMILY OBLIGATIONS AND HAVE KIDS TO RAISE AND ALL THESE OTHER THINGS THEY HAVE TO DO. SHOULD THEY BE WORKING HARDER AT THEIR JOBS AND IGNORING THESE OTHER RESPONSIBILITIES? TO ME THIS IS JUST A FUNDAMENTAL NEED TO REDEFINE WHAT SUCCESS IS GOING TO LOOK LIKE IN A WAY THAT IS A BIT MORE SUSTAINABLE AND A BIT MORE COMPASSIONATE. BECAUSE MANY OF THESE PEOPLE THAT WE TALK ABOUT ARE PEOPLE WHO HAVE THE BENEFIT OF HAVING A LOT OF SUPPORT SYSTEMS IN PLACE, OF HAVING THE MONEY TO BE ABLE TO MAYBE HIRE EXTRA STAFF, HIRE NANNIES AND HIRE COOKS AND TRAVEL BY JET, ALL OF THESE THINGS THAT ENABLE THEM TO GET MORE THINGS DONE. I THINK THAT THE AVERAGE PERSON CAN’T LOOK AT THAT AS A STANDARD AND THEN FEEL GUILTY AND SHAME THEMSELVES BECAUSE THEY’RE JUST STRUGGLING TO MAKE ENDS MEET BECAUSE SALARIES HAVEN’T RISEN, BECAUSE THERE’S, LIKE, WAGE STAGNATION AND BECAUSE OF ALL OF THESE OTHER ECONOMIC FACTORS. INSTEAD WE SAY, NO, NO, NONE OF THAT IS A BIG THING. YOU REALLY SHOULD BE WORKING HARDER. I SAW SOMETHING ON INSTAGRAM THE OTHER DAY SAYING IF YOU HAVE NOT GOING WHERE YOU WANT TO BE IN LIFE HAVE YOU CONSIDERED WHAT YOU ARE DOING BETWEEN 7:00 AND 12:00 a.m.? THIS IS THE NARRATIVE THEY WANT TO FIGHT AGAINST. NOT WORKING HARD, NOT DREAMING BIG, NOT SACRIFICING SOME THINGS TO BUILD IMPORTANT THINGS. BUT THIS IDEA OF WHAT SUCCESS LOOKS LIKE AND WHAT IS REQUIRED FOR US TO GET THERE. I THINK THAT THERE’S DEFINITELY ROOM FOR IMPROVEMENT.>>Andrew: I THINK THAT IS A GOOD POINT TO WRAP THE INTERVIEW. RAHAF, REALLY NICE TO TALK TO YOU.>>THANK YOU SO MUCH.>>Andrew: AND JUST AHEAD…>>>TWO KAYAKERS HAVE AN UNEXPECTED CLOSE ENCOUNTER IN ALASKA, MAYBE A LITTLE TOO CLOSE.>>HOLY [BLEEP] OH, PIE GOD, I’M LUCKY TO BE ALIVE RIGHT (*)>>Andrew: A VIRAL VIDEO OUT OF ALASKA SHOWS WHY TRAVELLING IN THE WILD CAN BE BOTH BEAUTIFUL AND UNPREDICTABLE. ANDREW HOOPER AND JOSH BASTIER ARE TWO FRIEND WHOSE WANTED TO SEE SPECTACULAR BUT REMOTE GLACIERS. NOW TO GET THERE THEY TRAVELLED BY FLOATPLANE AND TRAIN AND FINALLY BY INFLATABLE KAYAK AND WHAT HAPPENED NEXT IS TONIGHT’S “MOMENT.” (*)>>I WASN’T EXPECTING AN EVENT LIKE THIS. OBVIOUSLY, OUR IGNORANCE GOT THE BEST OF US. IT LUCKILY TURNED OUT TO BE OKAY. SO WE HUNG OUT THERE ABOUT FIVE MINUTES AND LISTENED AND WATCHED I’M FROM TEXAS, WE DON’T HAVE GLACIERS DOWN THERE. I GOT HIT IN THE HAND AND IN THE RIBS BUT OTHER THAN THAT I WAS OKAY. AS SOON AS IT DROPPED THE SPLASH STARTED TO HIT AND I THOUGHT THIS WILL BE INTERESTING AND ONCE THE SPLASH STARTED GOING TOWARDS OUR FACES I WAS SCARED. I THOUGHT THAT IT WAS OVER. WE DIDN’T KNOW WHAT TO EXPECT. ONCE IT EXPLODED I DIDN’T REALIZE HOW BIG IT WAS GOING TO GET. I WOULD SAY AN EIGHT-FOOT WAVE AND IT WAS BIG ENOUGH TO MAKE ME WANT TO TURN AROUND. SO WE STARTED PADDLING AWAY AND LOOKING BACK AND THE ICEBERG STARTED SURGING OUT OF THE WATER AND STARTED GETTING TALLER AND TALLER AND TALLER. I DIDN’T KNOW WHEN IT WAS GOING TO END.>>I AM LUCKY TO BE ALIVE.>>IT’S A LUCKY EXPERIENCE THAT WE SURVIVED. I WOULDN’T DO IT AGAIN, THAT’S FOR SURE.>>Andrew: THE FIRST TIME THAT I WATCHED THAT VIDEO I THOUGHT TO MYSELF OH, IT’S JUST — IT SEEMS LIKE A BIT OF WATER SPLASHING AT THEM. BUT THINK — THOSE ARE CHUNKS OF ICE FLYING AT THEM AT VERY HIGH SPEEDS AND THINK OF HOW COLD THAT WATER IS. DRYING OFF MUST NOT HAVE BEEN VERY FUN.>>>THAT’S “THE NATIONAL” FOR THIS SUNDAY, AUGUST 18th. HAVE A GOOD NIGHT. (*)

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