Roundtable on Scientific Aspects (2 of 2)

so we have cows burrito Cruz Edinburgh Cunha Tim Eifler Gerry Rosenfeld a legend so today so so the ideas for cows be to cruise just safe because he's not a cosmology still say something about past and there was some some Paulo and and she'll tell us more about that and then we'll have again five-minute presentations from the other for those things okay well good afternoon thanks for the invitation to participate in this discussion telling you a little bit about how we are working at the San Paolo Research Foundation for pests on large research collaborations in the fields of astronomy and cosmology so I'll use one slide to give you an idea of research in the state of San Paulo in Brazil then one slide about the Sun Polar Research Foundation then a few slides about the collaborations the state of Sao Paulo Brazil is a Federative Republic we have 26 states state of Sao Paulo is one of the 26 it's in the southeast of Brazil the state of some Paulo has a population of 42 million people which which I should stay there why is that so ways that you have a mobile microphone if I cannot move well the state of sao paulo has a population of 42 million people so in population it's more or less the size of Argentina and Spain and the state of some power response for about one third of the GDP of Brazil one third of the GDP of Brazil makes the economy of the state of são Paulo larger than the economy of Argentina and slightly smaller than the economy of Spain researchers in the state of San Paolo are authors in 43% of the articles published by researchers in Brazil even though the state has 20% of the population of Brazil and the universities in the state of San Paolo graduated in 2017 7002 almost seven thousand and three hundred pages so that is to say that it's a place where there is a lot of stuff going on in terms of research and development and I'm not going to go through all the topics here but I just want to mention to you what is in the upper bar here which is the number of researchers which are active in the state of San Paolo they are almost 70,000 38,000 and 500 work in the business sector so more than half of all the researchers who work in the state of some follow work for the business sector this is in its relevant mostly for us here in Brazil because people in Brazil think that there is no research in the business sector they are subject to what happened to people in the time of Pasteur they don't believe in the things they cannot see so they couldn't see the microorganisms so they said well there are no micro and they were there you have to look the right way so when you count the right way because many researchers tend to stay in their universities and not go around to see what's going on they think that there is research only universities that's not true more than half are outside universities 27,000 in universities 4000 in research institutes the research Enterprise in the state of são Paulo brings relevant results this shows that researchers in San Paolo publish more scientific articles than researchers in any other country in Latin America that the blue is some Paulo then Mexico Argentina Chile Colombia and others and part of this effort is done by the San Paulo Research Foundation fat-assed which is funded Foundation funded by the taxpayer in the state of Sao Paulo and this foundation gets 1% of all the tax revenues of the states the constitution of the state has an article that mandates that the government has to send this money too fast every month they have to calculate how much money they think they receive at the preceding year calculate 1% and send that to the foundation that means the foundation never has to negotiate a budget with the government or with the State Assembly and differently from what happens in most of other states in Brazil the government of the state of Sao Paulo follows the Constitution and they send the money every month so that the foundation has a stable budget and a predictable budget last year we analyzed at 26,000 research proposals and we spent 1.2 billion Brazilian highlights funding fellowships academic research and invest in university industry collaborations and it's no Business Research our strategy would summarize in one slide our objectives is that we would like research to bring results to the benefit of society and we see those in at least three dimensions what I mentioned is we want research you create new ideas not to do research about things that have already been done but to discover new stuff so we talk about intellectual impact ideas that will generate new ideas that will motivate researchers in other places to study about those then there is social impact many ideas not all but many ideas can bring direct or short-term impact for the population that happens a lot in health the environment and public policy and other topics and some other ideas have economic impact they can be used to create new businesses to make a business work better make more money create jobs and so on so those are the three things we look for at the foundation actually we always look for intellectual impact for new stuff original originality for I would say nice science you know how you recognize nice science nice science is science that when you read the start the beginning of the paper the first thought that comes to your mind is why is that I didn't have that idea so that's what we will look for in the projects that we fund at the San Paolo Research Foundation and then some of them will bring social impact some will bring economic impact in terms of collaborations and research facilities we have a list which is here on the left side which goes from neutrino physics CERN LHC the synchrotron light source that's being built in Brazil laboratory for high end microscopy which is in the center for energy research then we have this list of topics which relate to your topic here which is astronomy and cosmology we have llaman which we collaborate with Argentina to build a radio telescope which will work in partnership with Alma and then there is the great Mogollon telescope which also for pass this part of it researchers in the state of San Paolo will have about 4 percent of the time to use the telescope then there is the Cherenkov telescopes are a CTA researchers from the University of San Paolo in some Paulo and in some Carlos then there is bingo which is the baryonic oscillations experiment which is being built they are finishing the decision about the location and working with the antennas that they are going to use then there is this older one which is the Pierre Hadji Observatory which was installed many years ago in Argentina and then there is the Southern Observatory for astronomical research which is smaller telescope because it's older it's from 1998 or 1999 which was installed in Chile and we have several other smaller facilities and so on but I want just to to mention to you that we have this information about all the astronomy research that we fund and most of it is in in large collaborations which you can look at in this website for pest Astro dot PDF and I'll just mention to you that in astronomy and cosmology in the state of Sao Paulo we have about a hundred and forty five principal investigators principal investigators in our calculation is or counting is the number of people who requested funding from purpose in a period of 10 years in the ten years so there are a hundred and forty five of those in the state of some poll and again in well in three years from 2015 to 2018 we approve it a hundred and forty five grants for astronomy and cosmology we spent we contracted 230 million Brazilian highs in projects in the ten years between 2008 2017 and those scientists are now publishing 600 articles per year it's a it's a good number and in 2018 that represented 2.5 percent of the total world number the torah of the world in astronomy and cosmology and we are this is relevant for us because we know that this percentage was 1% in 2000 so researchers in some polar becoming more productive or participating more in this activity this these activities happen in the city of Sao Paulo they happen also in South Campus then there is an observatory here then there is Campinas and some carlos and it's very small in other other locations in the in the state so this one shows the number of articles per year which is getting to 600 this one shows the impact the number of citations divided by the number of articles which has grown steeply here since 2004 it's getting to be around 2 and that's the one that shows you that it's getting to be 2.5% with a special there was a change in the slope here around 2008 in terms of the expectations of the foundation when we accept when we approve a grant to participate in a large collaboration I try to summarize here the what we think about it doesn't mean we want all of those topics to be present but we want to we always discuss with the researcher about those topics to see how they can adjust or adapt their project you try to fulfill each one of those criteria one of course that's very easy we do that because we want to facilitate international collaboration but then we consider also the relevance of the participation of the researcher that we are going to fund you know that it's not difficult to enter in a collaboration and not do many things which are very relevant and have your name on a paper that's not what we are looking for we are looking for participation in which they have a chance to participate in specifying the problem looking for the ideas finding the solutions to obtain the results and so on we also look for participation in which researchers from the state of San Paolo have some opportunity to act in the governance of the collaboration at some level many times they start at a lower level and then they move up and become responsible for a sector for a division for a section and so on then we value the opportunities in which they bring responsibility for the development of instrumentation because that many times helped us to involve the business sector in the state of San Paolo in the project so we have had in all those that I have listed to you many nice cases of projects that generated opportunity for companies in the state of San Paolo those companies had to develop some technology and we can fund them in parallel to the activity to develop the technology and then they will be providers of to the project then we also value the idea of young talent recruitment of using the opportunity to collaborate and to collaborate in a protagonistic way to entice young scientists of any nationality from any country who are willing to come to some Paulo to start a career here usually those are postdocs who have been postdocs for two three five seven years and then they decide to come here we have a special type of grant it's like those of you who know Europe it's like an ear see starting grant it's a five year grant with equipment consumables fellowships most of the time it's a multi-million dollar grant for this young researcher to start their position for example a recent case very successful that we have is this person we brought from Italy to work in experimental neutrino physics at the University of Campinas a Tory cigarette and he had an idea in the detection of neutrinos and now he is the leader of the defeat division of neutrino detection at Fermilab in that June experiment everything funded by focus is a professor in Campinas he goes there he does his stuff there so that's the the kind of opportunity we look for then last point here is creating opportunities for industrial development which will bring challenges for industrial research and development and Industry participation in furnishing in providing stuff I had for example an interesting meeting a few weeks ago and I put together a number of small companies in sample to discuss with the director of Fermilab Nigel who came down about an opportunity and then the guys from Fermilab come and explain to them well you know we are detecting neutrinos and neutrinos are very difficult very difficult to detect and the way what we need from you is the following we need we have this there is a hole 500 meters down in the ground and we have rooms there and we need to fill this those rooms with 20 billion liters of liquid argon and we want you guys to provide the liquid argon to put there and the companies almost run away from the room but then we discuss it they understood that each one would do a small part of the thing and then we are now building this consortium of companies who are going to put the twenty billion liters of liquid argon down in the ground in some place in South Dakota to detect neutrinos so this is the kind of challenge that we look for in terms of industry participation I will finish by mentioning to you that here in the state of são Paulo being stimulated by pests the researchers Organists organized it SP a net some pol astronomy Network ready Paulista astronomy which congregates the researchers and because we want them to work or you whatever to work in a more articulated way to work sharing challenges sharing solutions and collaborating it's not only collaborating with the guys in the other side of the Atlantic it's collaborating between the guys in some following campaign as a journalist Campos and so on and they have this newsletter which is very useful if you want to learn what's going on in astronomy and cosmology in the state of Sao Paulo thank you very much [Applause] right okay so for those who don't know me my name is a shadow housing Feld I'm a professor here at the Institute radical physics and also part of safer the CDP safer and I'm a particle physicist and but i decided i start working cosmology I don't know ten twenty years ago row actually we and we were doing some theoretical work in dark energy and especially the possibility of dark energy to condense and participate more on the dynamics of the universe and at the same time the community was starting to participate the community in cosmology we're starting to participate in international projects and I had the impression that theory was well ahead of observation so I decided to join an intern international collaboration at the dark energy survey that time and yeah so I'm becoming observational cosmologists but they don't consider myself an observational cosmologists in fact Raul was mentioning the superconducting supercollider and I have to say that I was a fellow of the superconducting supercollider and my fellowship disappeared when the superconducting supercollider was canceled 1993 that's not the reason I moved to cosmology okay so I'm going to focus on large scale surveys and so BA said that no the new model is not Henry physics but I would say that in large-scale surveys most other large groups of people working so the model is really going inspired by collaborations in high-energy physics so that is that an instrument is built a telescope camera spectrograph etc and is used by a collaboration large number of people to collect a large amount of data that is then used to do science and there were already some discussions on how to participate and people can participate groups can participate by making contributions either cash or in-kind and enjoying these collaborations so I'm part of this we're talking about organizations no you have large groups of people so I have to organize these people and I'm a part of this laboratory Oh English this phonology a astronomia so which has had parties at the observatory nurse for now National servitor in Rio de Janeiro and I also impart action device coordinator of this National Institute of Science and Technology that's a project and that's given by the Brazilian government and we give this this organization here in supports two different projects so that in this survey the dark energy spectroscopic instrument large synoptic survey telescope Sloan Digital Sky Survey and and the transient union objects so for cosmology is mostly these four things provide scientists programmers database administrators workflow specialists high-performance computing storage and near Network etc so this is something that has to do with science and and and data and the organization there is a framework to organize these things so this is to give an idea of different some of the different surveys so someone said that the service can be basically classified into imaging and spectroscopy and this is a roadmap of something that we can do million to 2032 so we start in 2006 participating IBAs is part of the Sloan Digital Sky Survey to look for Barna plastic oscillations and we start participating in 2008 we start participating 2006 in the darkness survey so we have a group called it dark in history Brazil and 2016 we have a we have also group participate in desi and also a group participated in this LSST thing so you can see that we have a road map until 2032 of for this large-scale service now answering a question that Natan asked how how collaboration forms so this is an example okay this is an example of these collaborations I mentioned this is just an example dark survey which I know more about because I was involved I'm involved with it so it takes time and this is the timeline for a collaboration so it started with announcement of opportunity in 2003 and in the announced opportunity the whole community could apply right so people from Fermilab applied and they put up a consortium and they got the they got this this opportunity to build an instrument so they decide to build this what is called a dark energy camera so there was four years of research and development to to this camera then three more two more years to build a camera and the first light of this camera on this there was this the telescope was old was called the blonde it's called the Blanco telescope in Chile the first life was to September 2012 and and the and the observations just finished January of this year so you see how long it takes right so this was what sixteen years more or less that takes to a project to from the start from the call of opportunity to finish so this project is finished okay they do finish so now we are still analyzing the data but the project is finished so it takes time it takes people because there are lots of things to be done and darkness survey has around 300 scientists from different countries in the world these are the directors rich Crone is the current director it takes organization this is the chart for the dark energy survey organization so of course they don't want you to fill the names but their science there's management there's executive committees there's data communities etc it's complicated and in Brazil we participate this Weaver organization which is in the framework of linear and it takes resources so for DES for instance was $200,000 hariya is in cash contribution but mostly is in-kind contributions so developers of some some software science Portland quick reduces there's an IT team of 10 10 people more or less something that's really important is computing power for data analysis so this is something that you know it's not only data it's not only computing power to get from the data – raw data to some cat science catalog that you can actually do science with but also in order to extract no science results from from Cosmo to results of cosmology we need computing power to run chains etc so this disagreement has allowed for 10 pis and in the case of dark unity survey and a limited number of postdocs and students and something that's really important also is participation collaboration meetings and last December the called international collaboration meeting was hosted at unicum so this is just an example of an international collaboration and this is my last slide just to remove remind people what these are our main goals or main goal is to start from images like this so it's an imaging survey and it's a long road to get to the cosmology so this is a some of the main results of the year one analysis of darken is survey I don't want to go into details of course I just want to emphasize this long road here you know from data to cosmology so this is a major challenge that we all have to face I think that's that's all I want to say [Applause] at the beginning of this meeting in Nathan and it complained a bit about we have three schools at at the same time this is a way of seeing the the this problem but the other way is to assume that we are in a sweet moment of our Sciences on Paul and thanks to fab SP because we see the situation Brazil bit gloomy right now and but it spite everything the scientists on Paulo is in a very good position and of course everybody workers here know that fap SB is responsible for that I would like to start talking about Spinetta that ability to just mention few minutes ago it's Pinet sample astronomy network is a kind of alliance between institutions doing astronomy in this state we don't have funds we work with the funds of the projects and we try mostly to promote networking among the scientists within the state the objectives are to optimize the use of the available resources and increase the visibility of the science is done here in the state by the network is important for senior scientists and mostly for young scientists not share information new opportunities and allow for new collaborations among people involved we have done that mainly through the organization of the very formal workshops we have done already workshops on rate astronomy galaxy clusters time series we have organized at the beginning of the year a school on deep learning astronomy and we are publishing an international this letter four times a year the next workshop will be in October on instrumentation in astronomy we plan to to put together everybody developing instrumentation in astronomy in the state to discuss the challenges and problems that we face and look for common solutions I participate in several collaborations but I will just mention one here that is the P FS prime Fox spectra gap that should be put in the Subaru telescope in the next year in the next year p FS is bet by the super observatory to face the challenge of the big telescopes that you their face light by during the next decade as you know GMT and the probably ELT will have their first light during the next decade TMT I don't know what will happens but in order to become competitive has an 8 meter telescope with telescopes of much larger size so the Subaru Brat are decided to to build a very challenging instrument a spectrograph with almost 2400 fibers and covering a very large field of view one point three degrees those of you who knows the big telescope is nowadays like Germany do tea etc all these telescopes in general have a very small field of view this is not the case of Subaru it has the largest field of view amongst the largest telescopes available right now it's interesting to mention that why we are participating in this project the reason is that Brazil is a member of the Gemini Observatory in 2000 more or less we had a meeting a thing I remember was there with batteries where Gemini was discussing there its next instrument ation and in that occasion what was named with rumors appeared has a very important instrument for the next gen instrumentation generation of Gemini due to technical problems in particularity Gemini optic is needed to be changed in order to support much fiber spectrography with a large 2.2 and Gemini decided to do it with Subaru but after not long after they decide to give up project due to the lack of funds the Subaru Observatory on the other side received support from the Japanese government that recognized that this instrument would be very important for the observatory and decided to fund the instrument independently in a new collaboration that will is leaded by Yoshimura a AMA from the Institute of physics and mathematical of the universe of the Tokyo University and also professor in the University of California the participation our participation in this instrument is in kind Brazil is responsible for the development of the fiber system this instrument this is a very challenging part of the project because the fiber system is the only subsystem of the project that interfaces with all other subsystems with the prime focus instrument and in the other extreme with the spectrographs I would say that the organizational aspect of this collaboration is very simple compared with others in particular with DES that you just mentioned because right now most of the effort is put in the building of the instrument and we have a steering committee with members of the participating institutions we have now 14 participations and below this steering committee we have mostly technical groups developing parts building actually parts of the instrument as well has the science groups that this occurs because despite the fact that this instrument will be put in the Subaru telescope we need to convince by a proper science case the Japanese community that it's worth to spend this 80 million dollars that the cost of diseases instrument in doing it and putting it at the Subaru telescope so most of the scientific effort now is in writing science cases in galaxy archaeology galaxy pollution and cosmology that will be competitive between the next decade when this instrument will be in full operation I think that I will stop here [Applause] so I was actually told that we should at most put one or two slides and given that I was born in Germany I actually did that so I was thinking about what would be useful for me to talk about here here in this audience also mostly for students and I thought it's um partly how did I get involved in large collaborations what what happened at the various points in my my academic career so I got my PhD in Germany at the University of Bonn and I was not involved in any large collaborations whatsoever so I was a theorist I had a theory project I was working mostly just by myself and my computer and lots of other PhD students at the University of one were actually involved in larger collaborations namely at that point in time the so called sieve hdls survey the Canada France Hawaii Telescope legacy survey and I got my PhD in weak gravitational lensing so lots of people were involved in image reduction getting the redshifts of galaxies trying to measure weak lensing signal and then trying to infer cosmological parameters night tried to do all of that with simulated data actually I was I was even rejected from getting into the collaboration because they said you're this way to theoretical what you're doing this we don't really have have used for this those bases are all covered and then I took their public data and actually applied one of these small theoretical projects one of those cheap Theory ideas as I would call it two of those public datasets and show that there is still contamination in the datasets that have been previously undetected and well of course they didn't said yeah we were completely aware of this and but it is a nice idea it is a nice method we would like to integrate that and and and you're welcome to join but that was already at the end of my PhD and I actually moved on to my next position so it was not a very successful start with with large collaborations I moved to the Ohio State University this is the football stadium which encompasses which which can hold 105 thousand people so that was quite quite impressive to me as a CCAP fellow and that's where I got involved in the dark energy survey so the dark energy survey Brazil as a member of D as many people here in this room work on DES has just completed survey operations it has observed one eighth of the a of the overall sky five thousand square degrees camera field of view is actually 3.1 something square degrees so it's a very large camera it can map the sky very rapidly and it's a fantastic data set to do cosmology with I did not quite know that in 2009 when I joined this but I knew that the data was was very likely coming in and would be good and that is one advice that I would give to two students only work on data sets that already exists or that are really really close to being in existence because when I when I was still doing my PhD in in in the theory world I had lots of co PhD students who were proposing well I'm going to do cosmology with a kids survey that was one proposal kids got delayed by seven years the PhD project completely fell through it had to be done on some other data set so it is really important to work on data that exists already or you have to have a plan to just do a theory project that's I think very important I got deeper involved in DES when I moved to my second position at the University of Pennsylvania I started to lead a smaller group that was tasked to measure two-point correlation functions and I also got involved into in the large synoptic survey telescope which is going to be the next larger step like des is going to map more than half of the sky and to an even deeper to deeper depth and in more bands and at higher image quality etc etc so LSST is going to be quite a fantastic data set to work with and there is many science collaborations I'm mostly involved in the dark energy science collaboration but there's also science collaborations on transience galaxies formations whatnot so this is something that is quite interesting to look into and and perhaps to to get involved um then after two more years in Philly I moved to Pasadena on the west coast of the US and took a position as a staff scientist at NASA JPL which was a very different environment because you are now in one of the largest collaborations there is which is NASA and that comes with pros and cons so being in such a large collaboration also means there is a larger bureaucracy there is a larger bureaucratic overhead and that is another problem of very large collaborations and you should look at those collaborations carefully if you're a student and you should ask your advisers is this a collaboration that has a lot of bureaucratic overhead or is this an efficient collaboration where I can do some good science and also be known for my contributions and for my good science so those are important criteria for for choosing which collaboration to work on at NASA I worked on a space mission which is called w first wide field Infrared Survey telescope and also a smaller mission so this is what NASA calls a flagship mission flagship missions are very expensive this one is supposed to cost 3.2 billion dollars the current flagship mission that's in the news for cost overrun is JWST which is very expensive um now W first is still on track in terms of its budget and also a smaller mission which is called sterics that is an acronym but I'm spectrometer of something it has many different science cases but it's going to be an all-sky survey in very many different bands it is not going to be very deep but it is an all-sky survey and should provide a very interesting data set to look at so those two missions w first and spare expects was recently funded it is in NASA midex a mission that's up to some 250 million dollars I'm supposed to launch in 2023 supposed to launch in 2025 don't necessarily take those dates for granted they do tend to shift backwards the closer the launch date actually uh becomes yeah and then I got very nice off from the University of Arizona and moved from my cushy NASA place to the University of Arizona to start there as an assistant professor and the University of Arizona is also involved in dezzy it is an institutional member of desi I'm desi as a spectroscopic survey and mostly in the northern hemisphere but there will be some overlap with LSST I have not done anything for desi and that's like the last important advice if you were too deeply involved in in too many collaborations you will not be efficient so I mostly right now work on DES LSST I do some work for W first I barely work on spheric sand I do not yet work on desi but depending on if one of these data sets gets more and more interesting and it is very interesting to look into combinations of these data sets then then this might shift so within these surveys I lead so here I Lee the theory combine probes working group here I lead the weak lensing working group here lead some mission forecasting deliverable to look into what is the science return as a function of if you change the survey strategy do you want to go deep do you want to go wide you want to just use one band do you want to use many bands those are all decisions that are interesting to explore and a lot of this involves coding to forecast these designs endeavors and that's actually what I do most of the time when I'm fed up with some of the committee work or the administrative work I just go in code that's very nice and very relaxing alright thank you so I'm Ronen bar khanna from tel aviv university in israel so i guess i'll hit many of the themes that have been discussed but in a different example so I'm a theoretical cosmologist still most of my papers are just myself with a student or two and I'm very happy that it's still possible to do that kind of research but the most exciting thing for a theorist I mean at some point so in the field is that I work on now is a 21 centimeter cosmology just trying to discover basically the first stars through radio wave signature so for a long time theory was much more advanced than the observation but once observations start catching up the most exciting thing for a theorist is to interact with the newest data so you have to do to find a way to to get access to data so interestingly in the in this field there are two very different approaches one of them is just a relatively not certainly simple but Li small telescope that just tries to measure the average intensity on the sky as a function of wavelength or redshift so that's small science just you know small collaborations of a few people and and then you have trying to map the sky and find and measure the fluctuations and those are very large projects and I'm involved in the Square Kilometre Array and ska which is going to be the largest radio telescope basically ever built it's six hundred million euro budget for the first phase which is only one that is definitely going forward so and so and so it's been a kind of like a competition between these large products so for example things like LOFAR and other things that are happening now there are inter big interferometers and and the small almost tabletop experiment trying to measure the global signal but as far as long as nothing has been detected it's basically a competition and last year there was the first claim detection by one of the smaller an experiment called edges and it found something surprising and I so just as maybe they discovered some new property of dark matter so there was a lot of excitement but at the moment we're still waiting for independent confirmation and I mean eventually we'll see how the the big experiments come in and hopefully we'll know before they escape but but maybe the SK will come in and clean up everything eventually and sorry I mean if if what the the small experiment detected will be confirmed eventually by everybody then there will get most of the glorious thing for being first so we'll see how this works out in any case I mean the large experience will have a lot more information certainly but there's a lot of glory in being in being first so so there's still room for small science as well but but one interesting aspect here is that so in the SKA is actually the many interesting aspects of the organization so one thing is that so that it would some point it it was decided and I think this was you know there's a lot of political policy in this basically the the collaboration there were many people in the UK that were involved early on and number of different countries so there's some in Europe but but many other countries so they didn't want for example the the European science big political organizations to take over so so what happens it became actually the participation goes by country so not by institution or by individuals it's all by by participating countries through the government so there's now a political agreement that has been signed and needs to be ratified by the various countries so so there's some limitations for exam Israel where unfortunately we have basically no radio observers so we have many a lot of observational astronomy but it's all optical in Freud and so on and that we haven't developed register on me but so there's some restrictions for example in terms of leadership no formal leadership in the organization you have to be from a participating country then you know that these are huge budgets so the countries are demand to get their money back but still alive but it's a it's open to everybody for in terms of participating significantly in the signs so for for my portion for the the part which has to do with 21-centimeter cosmology from the signal from from high redshift it has to be basically one big collaboration so it's not like you have a telescope where you can you know when people can propose to use it in very with various ideas the the issue is that in in this subject our own galaxy and other radio galaxies produce a huge foreground which is much much brighter than the cosmological signal so before you can even think about doing anything with the the high redshift signal from first stars you have to clean out all the foreground very very very precisely so you need to calibrate basically perfectly because again the foreground unlike the scene be for example there's no there's no frequency where the cosmological signal is brighter than the foreground the photons are always much much brighter so it all starts by cleaning out the four guns very accurately so for example LOFAR has like 30,000 radio sources point sources in the sky that they are actively subtracting from the map and I guess SK will have even more so so you because of this this first step is huge and it's really the the biggest problem and this has to be done before I get to the signs it only makes sense for everybody to work together so the people who clean the map get and get credit for everything else that wasn't possible until this first foreground cleaning but I mean as a result it was a little bit sort of funny that in the first few meetings of the science working group there were many many theorists and very few people who know anything about how to clean the data but the theory won't get anywhere without practical people who know how to your model dust and all kinds of thing and you know into calibration so and the other aspect is that so I I try to participate in the meetings and and do some some work for escape but as much as possible I try it's pretty naturally most of them my work is aligned with the SKA 21-centimeter goals in in any case so I don't want it a specific ska work to take up too much of my time just because it in the timeline is is a bit unclear so or a little bit long term so now they're saying it's a it is actually going forward a lot of the funding is I think is going for is there I mean it's not maybe completely finalized are still I mean like a month ago New Zealand decided to to go to go out of the total project or just you know it's a tiny contribution anyway relatively but there's the plan is for 2025 to start really getting preliminary data but then who knows how long it will take to you know to learn to study the instrument and to calibrate the in this whole field of dealing with the foreground you have to be very careful I mean there have been some some published claims that were then retracted for upper limits that turned out to be incorrect so so there's a learning curve in this kind of new field and and who knows when we'll get real the first real reliable result from the SK so you don't want to really plan your whole career based and based on that you it's nice to participate and eventually hopefully very good things will come another thing is a bureaucracy so you know things have gone delayed there's been a cost-cutting you know one at least one a major they called the rebase lining basically cost-cutting because things were getting out of and you know the whole thing is a big part of the cost of these of these projects in registrar me you know is its basic computational because you have lots of antennas out in the field and it's the computer that puts them all together to one telescope so you're basically projecting to what will be the you know a supercomputer that you can afford in 2025 and hopefully no mores law and some some form continues to go and and so there's quite a bit of uncertainty I'm sure about that still because of that you have to be a little cautious with with a timeline but there's some you know there's some bureaucracy there so in the SK we're only one groups and I think we have more than 100 participants and but there's something like 14 or something different working groups because it's all of us turning or all of astronomers Lee has some radio astronomy aspect so there are many different demand from different people and there's a huge administration on the top that is trying to make the correct decision to account for everybody's needs so the results than 10 the basic antenna design has changed really beyond the the final date that it was supposed to be fixed so but I guess in in any project in any youtube project like this there are inevitable complications and delays but there are certainly very serious people involved so hopefully it will work in the end and so so I think hopefully you know more generally this balance of small signs still being possible because it's the nicest thing it's the place where creativity is is most you know apparent easiest to to manifest and also large collaborations because you can't compete with you know with the new instruments that are much more sensitive than anyone else so that's inevitable okay questions I can start with one question so are any of these collaborations exclusive in the census or some obviously they're doing similar things I mean are you allowed to be in as many collaborations as you want or can you share results between collaborations for example so so there's there's a couple of difficulties right so first of all you need to have funding for these for these large projects and sometimes these projects are funded by what's called p i– slots so for example let's take Alice's tea desk which is the large synoptic survey telescope dark energy science collaboration so Alice's tea I think shares data rights all across the US but now there's been recently some very murky reorganization of how data rights will be distributed to the international community and that's all a little bit up in the air as of two two ish months I believe the dark energy science collaboration I think you can join very very easily but that does not give you any kind of data rights that does give you access though to the desk specific tools so if you're a theorist if you want to act interact with other theorists if you're interested in the desk simulations and want to use the desk simulations you can just join that collaboration just cost you an email but if you want to analyze the data I think that's that's more involved des you have to be at a des institution or you have to work for somebody who has des data rights but there is also public data out there which is very good which is very nicely documented and which is very nice to just analyze if you have a new method so I would strongly recommend to people just start a small project on the public data that's out there there's also data from the kids survey there's data from the HSC survey out there which is nicely documented and if you have a new idea or a new methodology just apply it and go for so the short answer is no not everything is freely accessible sorry I could say the same for DFS EFS should start the Subarus strategic plan say next year and the survey will take almost five years to be completed and the during this period we should have two or three data releases when the data then our public for everybody and also this happens with other service for example in the case of s plus the sounder photo matically s plus is a photometric survey with a small telescope that is being conducted from Sao Paulo what Eric mentioned briefly at some point and we had a couple of weeks ago the first data release of the survey that is now available for who wants to work with this data how come the rest of South America follow so Paulus example hopeful we potentially build meaningful collaborations in South America mostly aimed at the first presentation because I think is really incredible what's happening so Paolo but I'm wondering how could it permeate the rest of the territory yeah there are some initiatives to establish certain collaborations among research or starting with researchers in Latin America but you know one of the things that tends to hinder that is the fact that most countries are not willing to commit funding for complex and large things in science that might take ten years to get to a result so this is a complication but for example when when Brazil decided to to build the synchrotron light source the researchers who were who created the idea tried very hard to obtain interest from other countries in Latin America which they did there was interest but no government was willing to commit to the cost so Brazil decided to go at it alone and they did the first synchrotron light source and now they're finishing we are finishing the second one so it is challenging that there is one collaboration which more or less goes in this direction that you mentioned which is the project bingo which I mentioned briefly because a relevant part of the leadership of the collaboration is amis in Brazil and it's from Brazil even though they are working with the colleagues in Manchester and Jodrell Bank and other places and hi Daniel face no idea heroes I would like to know your opinion about the connections we from the universities and philosophy with the industry because I think participating in instrumentation of these projects involves a high technology and this means investment and probably having some common goals between academia and industry and also we for what I'm mostly involve is optical instrumentation for astronomy and instrumentation could be a bargain chip for participation is in such project so if we could create a common institution for that I think that would be a very helpful when negotiating to join in the new projects just an example of a common goal right and I also so in the in this point I see a good example that like you've brought that probably not probably but LNA we are doing the fiber optics for Subaru because we have the previous good experience or our training in some sense at solar telescope so it's this is a good example to say how its how is hard to do high-tech technology with without the planning or background and yeah that's it it's just sharing some thoughts and I would like to hear from you well as you mentioned our involvement with optical fibers is due to the experience of the ln8 laboratory on us and not just of physical that is outside sample despite its fact FAP SP is responsible for most of the equipment that is there I hope that bit is not hear me and and actually we were able to start in LNA a very good expertise in this sector of engineering developing instrumentation for the solar telescope as I mentioned and also building detectors and the small cameras for observatories abroad these led to I would say to a constitution of a group of very good expertise on what Co fibers in Brazil and that was the motive why we were accepted in the PFS collaboration because people knew before the expertise that we had and we were also able to keep these expertise not only the academy but also in the industry so now we have groups of engineers and the local industries in the state of some problem mostly some cars that developed products for us practice are in the case of PFS besides the fibers there are lots of components in these equipment there's connectors of several kinds there are mechanisms to to avoid the focal ratio the Galatian six like that that we have now a team among several is more enterprises here in this state that are able to develop project for this sort of thing that is very specific but very competitive I would say even at the international level and the this expertise that has been built along the years for many people will continue I'm sure because for example I know that the batteries is preparing a project that will continue to use the expertise of this group and the expertise of the companies that we have assembled around the project of the building instruments base their own optical fibres a quick question so who is doing this coordination with industry is API of the project well I rely very much on the technical expertise of people at LMA and also at the companies themselves because you know by now I know people we know which other from long time so we are able to scale directly with them I'm Alessandra droplet from yashio SP I have two questions in fact completely unrelated to each other so let me start with the perhaps the difficult one I think that they've made a beautiful case of showing the time scale of an instrument of medium-high complexity which from conception to first light it takes about ten years when you want to design such an instrument you mostly want to have your technical team on board from design at least the first light so and I I wonder if most of you guys in various collaborations have to say have the same feeling but most importantly is how do you manage to keep for example a mechanical engineer or an optical engineer inside a project for 10 years because you try to have a optical engineers as students or postdocs on soft money they get contracts out to three years they build it maybe you get one person who designs part of your instrument at some point the person who gets the instrument on sky is someone who has doesn't have the same feeling as the person who designed it so it can lead to disaster most as far as I understand most of the big observatories they actually do have their own stuffs traumas sorry stuff optical engineers stuff mechanics so long story short it's that way to help this thing within the state of Sao Paulo for example in other words helped build the instruments inside the state of Sao Paulo I think we are left to have fantastic here otherwise this would be possible I would say because for example in the case of PFS our participation in the project is worth five million dollars and is already we funded of course didn't put five million dollars because there at the time of the people engineers things like that that are also included in this budget but I would say that the fundraising and the keeping the momentum of the the money flux are big challenges fortunately I think that up to now we personally should the same as for recognizing that this is an issue and for keeping their support to us all the time that's what I would say I'm confident that this is something that will be a legacy for the new generation of astronomers so I'm very confident that this investment will have a bigger return in the scientific terms in terms of formation of our scientific community here things like that I I would add here that the way we see that from the past is that the universities that host the project must come up with some support of exactly the type that you are saying if a university wants to have a PI who has a forty million dollars grant to do some complicated thing that's going to last five seven ten years this university must be willing to hire one or two or three engineers if they are not we simply don't award the money because it's it would be a waste of money and every University in the state of some power the main research universities if they want they can when they say they cannot it's because they do not want it's not because they cannot because I mean a university like the University of you work at the University of some power how many people work there 10,000 ok many many times tend to their whatever so they have a lot of people so they could have two or three who are engineers to support the research which is being funded from elsewhere that's what we look for I abuse of your patients this question is a little bit more general and actually goes very much for all the older projects and it's a little bit inspired by commenter Alessandra made before how do the collaborations deal with the diversity gender balance across the various levels of the collaboration so you're you're asking an old male panel about them just just pointing that out yeah well I guess there's there's no way to hide that um this could be done much better this has started recently I think to become more important topic in all collaborations as far as I can see but it is not handled extremely well so I mean in terms of formalities there is a diversity and inclusion policy in DES and LSST desk there is very clear policies about well how to behave during collaboration meetings etc etc there is on boats people you can talk to there is confidential people in the collaboration where you can bring bring issues to but in terms of like gender balance across leadership there is no rules like that right there is not a quota or anything it is in people's minds and I think it's gotten a bit better but there is still I know so there's places where I see this which is you know if in telecoms for example right if somebody with a very deep voice very confidently says something that is usually not that harshly questioned whereas some if there is a junior female person saying something that is sometimes questioned at a unjustified scrutinized level which is and I think that's that's something were senior people have to just be aware that that there is some behavior that is just implemented in these imprinted in these large collaborations that you need to actively try to even out that's not that's not very easy it's not quick I also know that in in in Euclid's I mean you perhaps want to say something about that there is now the attempt to to to increase gender diversity but I also heard the story and coming from Europe most of my science friends are still in Euclid it's like the publication board which is led by my former supervisor it's all made Peter Schneider yeah so that and and that caused some well I mean it was noted let me put it that way so I think we have a long way to go and I think it is important for everybody to note that even in very small settings like in in telecoms right it is important to kind of be well to be very careful how you what you what you criticize right you should never criticize a person etc you should criticize the topic and so on um there's a long way to go still in diversity is a very complicated issue so it's very tricky how to address it so I don't want to get into that but yeah my comment was that euclid is trying to make an effort and I see they are successful in certain things he's referring to a funny let's call it funny event the you last Nuclear Assault so meeting when Peter Schneider was talking is he's the head of the board of the Board of Examiners editorial board and he was showing in one slide all the relevant people in that board and it was a slide of senior male scientists or somebody from the audience unfortunately a young woman so that didn't help asked raise her hand and said I don't see much diversity in that board and there was total silence 400 people silent and Peter's knight replied got upset and he said I was given the task to form this board I chose the best people for this job end of the story and so it was perhaps not the best reply but the most striking thing is that nobody of the 400 people in there said anything at the time then they I mean there was a reaction so now that there is an open call for new positions in the datoria border and they stress the fact that they will be very careful with diversity when I start giving this new position so eventually something happened but yeah I just want to quickly add so I'm not part of the Euclid collaboration but that story has reached me in DES one of the science co-chairs so basically the high scientific position that we have is a woman in desk in LSST desk the spokesperson Rachel mandelbaum is there's a woman I think desk is generally doing quite a good job at this and generally it is a very democratic institution so terms that the spokesperson is elected right by the members so you become a member of desk you elect the leadership there is a collaboration Council which makes the most important decisions it's also elected and I think these people have recognized that in order to cover like the broad basis and in order to fully exploit all the potential that you have in a collaboration you have to build a diverse leadership I think that's been noted at least in in those collaborations here coming back to his question I mean I would like to point out they allowed the surveys that Tim described all of them actually based a led by National Labs slack Fermilab LPL involved winner of NCSA nasa so it's very hard for universities to do that basically I mean and in European is based of conference have a question for represent of a passbook can can the the other states also have funding agencies is not as well developed as fat ass but can these paps make regional agreements for example you need a rio de janeiro some paulo stupid computer so we can archive all these collaborations and make the analysis you know something that you know we can do between the federal government that funds a really big project and things that are just for you know one state so that's my question my comment for the diversity part doesn't think that's something that i can comment yes that at least my collaborations that i've been working that windy SSD it was really nice I hadn't never problem but one thing that I see is that in order for this diversity to reach up did the hiring at the universities need to be more diverse if we still have only 10% of woman in the physics departments we won we over subscribe this 10% and to we will not reach balance in the you know in the decision port so something that has to be a cross not only collaborations on also universities so there any questions between the yeah you asking about collaboration with funding agencies of other states in Brazil we do that many times the challenge there is that most of the time the funding agencies in the other states have difficulties to commit to large commitments and long times but whenever that was possible we did this kind of collaboration but never for a large thing like a supercomputer and stuff like that but we have done that with the national government to buy a supercomputer that is offered for use to anyone in Brazil but anybody in the round table want to ask a question or make a comment questions okay so let's thank the panelists again discussion so there's this food upstairs people that want to stay and talk

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