Public Sociology – Lecture 1: What is Public Sociology?, Michael Burawoy



welcome to you all Berkeley students global students in Barcelona South Paulo Kiev Salvador Tunis Lisbon Oslo Tehran Johannesburg or wherever else you may be this is an experimental course called public sociology July's a collaboration between the International sociological association University of California Berkeley and universities ancestor logical associations around the world I'm Michael borovoye president of the International says logical Association and I will be teaching this course with my colleague Larnaca Bohannon she's right here next to me and she will be moderating the class today Berkeley's educational technology technology services will be helping us operate the sophisticated equipment in this newly designed room that we have here this indeed is going to be an amazing experiment with all this newfangled technology but as I shall explain this course will involve far more than the people in this room we form but one node in a widely flung and global net as you will see this is indeed very much an experiment but first let me tell you what motivates this course it's very simple the world is in a mess today is January 25th and as I speak Tahrir Square in Cairo is teeming with people celebrating the anniversary of the so called January revolution that overthrew the Mubarak dictatorship many will be protesting tonight that the Revolution was actually hijacked by the military that it was more like a military coup well this last year hopes like these have been dashed but they have not been destroyed the global movement Egypt inspired continues despite setbacks we've seen protests we across the Arab world through Tunisia Egypt Libya Yemen and as I speak courageous people are sacrificing their lives in Syria in a costly war against the brutal dictatorship of Bashar Assad we've seen protests of the indignados spreading across Europe against bankrupt States seeking to impose fiscal austerity on desperate populations we have seen protests in India around corruption or land expropriation indeed similar process can also be found in China whether real story increasingly lies in the destruction of rural communities through land speculation and expropriation in Latin America economic decline in the 1990s generated all manner of social movements many of them calling for different forms of participatory democracy social movements that have been deep intensified over the last year in Chile for example there has been a massive uprising of students against the commercialization of higher education moving to another continent Africa we find in South Africa where inequality seems to gallop ahead there have been bitter protests around inadequate service delivery in the Philippines where just over a month ago 1200 people died in a typhoon public opinion increasingly views these disasters as unnatural the product of yes global warming in Japan in Fukushima following with everyone knows to be an unnatural disaster there is an expanding opposition to nuclear power and yes even in the United States as a movement they call it the Occupy movements focused its attention on the one percent whose ever-increasing world comes at the expense of the 99% the u.s. state and of course the u.s. state inspired this movement the u.s. state bailed out the banks to save the rule of finance capital we can call it socialism for the bankers the bankers are banking on socialism well each movement that I could go on and on while each movement have its own natural national character and object the wave of movements that we have observed over this last year has a global character in one way or another they all protest the collusion of state and market at the expense of society indeed there seems to be no limit to the invasion of the market no place that is sacred no entity free of commodification indeed across the world the public university itself is being overrun by market pressures that show themselves up in your yes your increased to be tuition fees but also in cost-cutting that leads to the degradation of your education indeed the university comes to look ever more like a private business with high paid managers in relentless pursuit of more and richer clients they are foreign students the university itself the university staff becomes a contested terrain and the question is this will it side with the market and the state or with social movements emanating from society and within the university where does sociology stand and within society are threatened by state and market what direction does sociology face will it bury its head in the mounting rubble sociology I believe has always turns its head against the unregulated markets and the despotic state starting in the Ephraim Marx and Weber and Dirk I'm familiar figures to you around this table including even Talcott Parsons perhaps a little less familiar to you and icon of us sociology of the 1950's yes and then we can think of dependency theory of feminism and post colonialism they're all critical in their criticism of market fundamentalism but today today how should we constitute sociology how should we constitute a sociology for a world careering toward its own self-made disaster and here i want to recall the ideas and words of Searight mills the great maverick of us sociology who defined the sociological imagination as what the turning of personal troubles anybody new into public issues what did you say probably she's very good Kaylie yes when facing unemployment or land expropriation we get so caught up in our own troubles that we are often blind to the broader forces at work namely unregulated labor markets unregulated and markets unregulated money markets and now we have unregulated knowledge markets aided all of them aided and abetted by the states my nation states a sociologists we study investigate research these broader forces that shape our personal troubles but how do we make those forces the object of public debate how do we make them public issues this is the task of public sociology convincing people that what they personally experience as individuals is the product of broader forces that can potentially be brought under human control convincing them for example if my colleague Arlie Hochschild has tried to do that the gender division of labor and family is not only a product of power-hungry men and go we do have power hungry men there are lower than around but it's a product of the way society organizes careers so that careers are essentially four individuals dependent upon somebody at home the family Oh to give another example my teacher William Julius Wilson tried to show that class is more important than race in the determination of African American poverty or again Pierre Bourdieu a great French sociologist try to show that the maintenance of class domination works through education and the inheritance of cultural resources or what he called cultural capital these are visions of the macro forces that shape our individual lives sometimes those forces actually are invisible and so sociologists are important in making them visible so again for example South African sociologist Eddie Webster tried to show that trade unions rooted in communities could be a powerful weapon against South African apartheid I could go on and give you many more examples but as we shall see each country has its own public sociology but let us not move too quickly into the quicksand of wider society let us not forget that as fully fledged sociologists we all share one public that public is our students they are our first public they are a captured public you have to sit here and pretend at least to listen to me yes and I can actually impose examinations on you and so far as you follow the normal routines you will actually learn something you are forced to absorb some sociology you are indeed a captured public and moreover students do as students you have your own publics and bringing sociology to you to students teachers of sociology are bringing sociology to the wider community so before I go any further let me introduce your in watching this video to the students of this class because they are going to be active participants let me introduce the students of this class and the public's they represent so we'll ask around the room a personal start with you Kaylee hi my name is kami I'm interested in food as in x axis intersect with social movements gender and sustainability so public the most connected to our food justice activists and community we open hi everyone my name's speed I'm originally from Jamaica I was educated in the United States I'm connected to the Caribbean public and the gentle other than advocates and followers wanting to increase access to higher education hello I use my name is Ryan Theriot and as you know Texas I'll be studying the Midianites all I'm interested in health disparities for money and EMS setting on status I was born and raised in Southern California I identify with first-generation college students particularly with Mexican Americans and in facing adverse better education samosa sounds hi everyone my name is Minh nuit I'm originally from Los Angeles California I study international relations in global poverty study and I strongly identify with public that last challenge is that based challenges and education hi my name is mom Enzo I'm from our way I guess I identify with Scandinavian students climate activists and well the face of generation hi I'm Bonita I was born in Norway arrange my lunch but now I live at the Medellin I focus Napolitan and I think mixture of individuals rather than your groups or public hello my name is Ryan Falk and I was born and raised in California I'm interested in minority advocacy as well as groups involved in human rights violations at both the national and international level hi I'm Andrew I'm from a small shrinking City and upstate New York and I'm connected to the queer community as well as activists and critically minded spaces on campus hi I'm here a very local Santa embarks on a year of world travels I don't really identify too strongly with what anyone public so I feel the most kinship with intellectuals and humans in general hi my name is Mike and I grew up in Kansas City and and working-class family I have traveled work or otherwise connected public and Ecuador India Thailand Costa Rica's wkt Iceland hungry and Norway hi I'm sorry John born and raised in the area and I'm very interested in economic sociology in terms of publics I connect with students soccer players and those curious and interested in the world around them hi my name is Raymond any sociology major coming from a background of both sociology and biblical study because that I feel most aligned with the Protestant Christian communities them along with the minority groups specifically working-class ethnic groups including both Filipino Americans and Mexican Americans hello my name is the other side that I was born in unusual I connect mostly with marginalizing these engines hi my name is David Torres I was born and raised in Los Angeles California and I identify with minorities and lower class urban youth when in school my Phoenix I'm from Calexico California a small town on the border of the each of SATA California and I have connections with the Latino community I go back up my name is Jamie senseless benissa is US citizens living in Mexico who migrate between two cultures two languages in two nations every day the public's I identify with are immigrants in English is the second language students where let's be not informers former homeless youths in the US hi my name is Miss Hasselbeck I grew up in skills activist community focused on global social justice currently I feel b2 doing interested to the Occupy movement as well as the demands for social change in Kenya so I'm lolly I'm originally from Iran and I feel definitely connected to Middle Eastern and was from Publix especially those who live here in the US and I like Michele also feel very invested in the development of the public's being constituted by the Occupy movement here in the US as well good so you see this is a very cosmopolitan group of students perhaps a result of the patterns of migration to California and globalization more generally also students connected to many of the movements that we do I was just mentioning that's not coincidentally and also it is interesting that it is these these sorts of students who are attracted to sociology perhaps or something about sociology that attracts a certain cosmopolitan community of communities that actually identify with publics that are perhaps more marginal in the world well those are the students let me tell you about the course what are we going to do haha we are going to be listening to public sociologists from different countries Lebanon Brazil Colombia Philippines France China India Ukraine Spain South Africa and the United States one for each they will be talking about their projects how they bring their sociality to publics the dilemmas and challenges the contradictions and frustrations the successes and failures that they have faced each week there will be another far away sociologist in conversation with students here in Berkeley the conversation will be recorded edited downloaded and made available on the is a website and Facebook there will also be a blog where we'll be posting a few reading materials by sociologists under discussion the part is just the beginning this conversation will then be watched and discussed by classes and Lisbon Sal Paulo Johannesburg Oslo kiya Tarrant Kunis Barcelona and probably other places each partner class will post a short summary of their discussion of their own discussion of the videos on Facebook which will then be open for comments from anywhere from anyone in the world in this way we hope to create a global community of sociologists a network of nodes bringing sociology to wider audiences at the same time is discussing how to actually accomplish this goal of contacting wider audiences we will be building the aeroplane as we fly it a hazardous process indeed well we should begin with a simple question what is a public there is no simple singular agreed-upon definition but if we talk about public sociology we should have a point of departure about its concern the idea of public and we will turn back to this question time and again during the semester but for now let me say this a public can be a social movement an organization a group but always seen from the perspective of it being made up of listeners and speakers public are first and foremost arenas of real and potential communication public's can be thick or thin the communication can be dense or sparse publics can be narrow or broad they can be immediate narrow neighborhood associations it can also be published can be of a national character perhaps the readership of a national newspaper publics can be active or passive they can in fact not know one another they can be passive like a readership of a newspaper but they can also be active like a social movement and public can be mainstream or oppositional well just as publics are very diverse so is public sociology that's what all public sociologists share is their communication with publics beyond the Academy which implies a complex communication a communication among members are they public themselves in communication with sociologists publics have an internal conversation even as they are in conversation with sociologists that is the core of the idea of accessibility like communication or conversation between sociologists and public can be of two forms a mediated conversation or what I call traditional public sociology this is the sociologists entering into conversation with publics through newspapers to op-ed pieces through television channels through interviews on radio through blogs through books that are widely read that is the call the traditional public social as opposed to the organic public sociology to either unmediated relationship to publics and face-to-face if you will a face-to-face relationship with publics these are the sociologists who are working in the trenches of civil society with trade unions social movements with neighborhood associations with religious organizations entering into a conversation with them that is direct and unmediated so there are these two types of public sociology traditional and organic and we won't see through the semester how our different public says the other is fit one or other of these modes now you might think there's always public sociology what's the fuss it's pretty uncontroversial right rectally yeah exactly I mean what deal obviously sociologists would want their ideas to be disseminated to publics beyond the Academy and yet public sociology has been proven to be extraordinary controversial my colleagues my department very disapproving or some event are disapproving of the idea of public sociology there have been perhaps 20 or more symposium debating well it's a public sociology is a good idea what it means how it should be done it's dangerous dilemmas being very controversial these symposia have taken place all over the world so to understand why there should be so much controversy we have to understand the relationship of public sociology to the rest of sociology and that is what I tend to do in that the remainder of my time which is how much make up 10 15 15 okay thank you here now is a hard bargainer well anyway alright 50 minutes to explain the academic division of labor ok let us start let us start let us start with public sociology sociology I hope you can read this and if you can't as I tell to my students just a very effort trying to read it will keep you awake public sociology of course with organic and traditional forms and the idea is that sociology here is in close connection with publics it's accessible to public and accountable to publics this has to be first and foremost contrasted with with professional sociology absolutely professional sociology is sociology talking so sorry talking to him to sociologists very good the distance knowledge is doing research and research programs and being evaluated by fellow sociologists peer review and often the sociology is incomprehensible to those who are not social indeed sometimes incomprehensible the sociologists themselves is therefore intention with public sociology which has to be accessible to public's so here we have professional scientific sociology developing and it is a necessary part of an input into public sociology because public sociology after all sociology if it is there is in that connection and it's not really sociology but at the same time there is the tension between the two as one is accountable to peers the other accountable to publics so there is an interdependent relationship professional depends in my view upon the public social infuses challenges into professional sociology at the same time the public sociology depends upon the profession it's an antagonistic interdependence but that is not all there is in the academic division of labor there is also something called policy sociology policy science this is the sociology to have actually got something to offer to a client's the sociologist who is there to solve a problem defiant by a client you know the mayor of Oakland is very worried about the Occupy movement if I employ some sociologists to figure out how to regulate the Occupy movement sociologists are very good at thinking of ways of absorbing dissent okay so there are the possibility of policy sociologists actually innocent serving clients and often in return they get some payments or contract your relationship some a conversation it's a relationship of subservience to a client now sometimes of course that sub Services has been those more autonomy and they've been some wonderful policy sociologist so they're excellent working for example areas of education in areas of poverty areas of race relations but anyway it's a different relationship there is however as you can see sociologists tale of two by two tables that is the markup well at least yet us sociologists can you construct a two-by-two table well that means I got to have a fourth box and the fourth box in and be occupied by what I call critical sociology critical sociology of a sociology that examines the foundations of professional sociology it examines the methodological assumptions the theoretical assumptions and the value foundations of professional sociology lays bare what the professional sociologists doesn't want to really contemplate because he or she wants to get on with the science and to do that have to make certain assumptions and it doesn't like the critical systems are always so biting at their heels questioning the foundations of the profession so revealing those foundations but the political sociologist is an important input into professional sociology it's moving it at different ways in different times so the critical sociologist is the sociologist who's engaged with other sociologists in talking about the foundations of sociology so there are my two my two-by-two table by four types of sociology we have to give these this table dimensions the dimensions are lost well here we have an academic audience an academic audience academic audience professional so she also in critical sociology are talking to other academics and here we have an extra academic audience okay the policy talking to the client the public sociology talking to publics now along this dimension is more tricky I make a distinction here between what I call mental knowledge professional says they'll just hate me for calling their type of knowledge instrumental but what I'm trying to indicate with this instrumental pattern of if knowledge is concerned with means forgiving ends here we are solving problems defined by client and here we are solving puzzles defined by the research program which is taken for granted the scientific program that is taken for granted as opposed to reflexive reflexive reflexive knowledge which involves a discussion of values and goals of values and goals here we have sociologists talking to one another discussing with one another the foundations of professional sociology here we have the sociologists discussing with publics the Foundation's directions and goals of society with distinction between instrumental and reflects acknowledged is an old distinction that actually made first life well not my first effect but I thought well the celebrated way by Max Weber and taken up by the Frankfurt School and what both labour and the Frankfurt School were concerned with is the disappearance of reflexive notes so disappearance of discussions in society about the direction and goals of society you're increasingly obsessed in modern society with a conservative efficient means rather than with the goal okay so very good we have our dimensions now but behind these dimensions are two fundamental questions that sociologists social scientists scholars perhaps are too reluctant to pose to profound and fundamental questions we have suppose if we want to think about a sociology for today the first question is knowledge for whom knowledge for whom knowledge for whom are we talking to academics what are we talking to those who are outside the academic world knowledge for whom an academic or electorate and here we have knowledge straw what are we concerned with means or are we concerned with a discussion of values so those are the two big questions we cannot avoid we must continually remind ourselves of how important our who are we producing knowledge for and for what hand with it for looking at means or for discussing goals so that is my two-by-two table and I can talk about this for a week but I've only got five minutes all right I want to say three things three things first a flourishing discipline a flourishing discipline and this applies to all disciplines in my view is one in which recognizes all four types of knowledge in a relationship of interdependence the sociology will be a flourishing discipline if there is a professional our policy a public and the critical in relationship of interdependence a relationship of interdependence antagonist even to defendants to be sure but into dependence we need all four and insofar as any one of these hives often from the others we are that much the weaker as a discipline my second point is that in reality the relationship among these knowledge is is not one of wonderful into the antagonistic interdependence but is actually also one of domination but in different countries in different places and different historical moments sociology has a different configuration of these knowledge –is different configuration of domination so in the United States that professional sociology is what dominates the scheme and it always the danger that it will push out of existence to call on the public in a country like Brazil or India or South Africa or from European countries the public sociology is much stronger than it is in this country indeed if you will go to Brazil of South Africa and talk about public sociology as I have from time to time they wonder what I know if you're talking about and we're also theology is public what else would one do it for oh well so in many countries public sociologists take for granted but not necessarily know stated where it is controversial because the professionals feel threatened in some way by public sociology which they claim is going to politicize the discipline it's going to suggest that we are not a pure of science it's going to be legitimate and discredit the discipline and the policy sociologists are also worried that public sociology will actually make sociology look like a salsa from activism or something that will in turn be legitimate their scientific access their access based on science to the client clients so so you've seen different country so you might say in in the Soviet Union the policy sociology was very dominant essentially sociology were they was basically an instrument of with an ideological instrument of the party state and to this day in post-soviet Russia a lot of sociology is still very policy oriented now in a sense in the service of corporations or politicians make sociologists spend a lot of time doing Survey Research from that class yeah I'm actually interestingly enough you might say in Scandinavian countries policy sociology is quite strong because of the connection sociology to a welfare state finally critical sociology I don't know I can I don't know where one can say what sort of countries there is a powerful critical sociology one might say in societies where sociology is very weak where there is also a tearing regime that does not allow the development of civil society there in those circumstances a critical search underground sociology may appear such as in the Soviet era in Eastern Europe they say though the French are very critical so perhaps one might argue that you know critical sociology is strong in France the other point is that the articulation of these different knowledge is looks very different in different difficult different different countries different time okay I know I'm moving to my third point my third point I talked about different types of knowledge professional policy public critical but we should not say thing a little bit about the schmuck sociology but the so seola yes the people now only given sociologists may specialize in one of these four or may in fact signed him or herself in more than one of these quadrants combining the professional the critic among these Wednesdays and Fridays you are professional socialism Tuesdays and Thursdays your critical sociology so you can combine you can combine these different types of knowledge but you know we only have 24 hours a day and it's very difficult to combine all four so we tend to specialize it's fascinating lecture if you go to the global South sociologists and the global South tend to have to buy virtual the pressures upon them they tend to have to actually and combine these for all the time I liken them sometimes to a windmill because they are continually having to actually move between these four whereas we neither state remember we have the luxury of sociologists like myself had the luxury of actually specializing a profession and one can say one can argue that one can argue that sociologists also had careers through these quadrants and let me just very briefly very quickly because that lolly wants me to wrap up let me very quickly give you a thumbnail sketch of my career and how I move through these boxes I began up here at the policy sociologist for a collage multinational mining corporation in Zambia others or backroom boy in a personnel research unit helping them generate a job evaluation scheme so that was my sort of policy moment but behind that policy moment behind that policy moment was a public moment because he was actually interesting why would I employed in this multinational corporation because I was interested in what was happening to the racial order in the mining industry into one extent in post-colonial Zambia 68 to 72 to what extent race was being reproduced in the post-colonial order the very antithesis of the project and the program of a post-colonial Zambia so I produced this book called the color of class and it was all about the way in which the color bar in in Zambia was actually being reproduced in post-colonial era and so I produces this resistor this research report and I published it and it became subject to a lot of discussion a lot of debate it was really my first and Parkes was a significant form of public sociology I did interestingly enough I got cold feet because when I saw is that you produce a report you produce a report and you never know quite know what's going to happen to it and it isn't what powers that be in society that can actually determine how it's going to be put to what end is going to be put and the multinational corporations got hold of the report and used it for their own ends and so I began to be melodic skeptical of a possibility of public sociology one loses control of the knowledge one produces and so I left Zambia and went to University of Chicago B did my PhD and but with my Marxism that I picked up in Zambia I became a critical sociologist very critical of the mainstream sociologists that I was being said by my professors at the University of Chicago so there I was this critical sociologist University comes and thanks Lonnie but sort of the critical sociology the Marxism of the 1970s became actually accept discipline and I will assess mainstream the ideas that I have were being actually consumed and led by graduate students in different places in the country so I became a professional sociologist so here I go well and I end up here and eventually I even became rotary dinners the president of the American Sociological Association and one has to be a professional sociologist I think to achieve such Heights yes indeed so here so that's my that's my career through these different types of sociology and where am I now well I'm here you can see me I'm right in the middle here I am I am here now trying to promote in a vision of the discipline that involves all four types of knowledge all four types of knowledge and the result is that everybody hates me everybody criticizes me from every one of these boxes of public sociologists think I've sold out the professional services always just think I'm too radical your critical sociologists think you know that I've lost all sense of critique and the politics of geologists thing I am destroying the very foundations of their policy science but it's great because we are now having a debate even in the discipline of sociology about the character of sociology and at the center of that debate is indeed public sociology which is what this course is all about so I'm now going to conclude so let me conclude what I have done today is present to you a broad understanding of like sociology I am trying to locate public sociology in relation to three other types of sociology professional policy and critical together they form what I call the disciplinary division of labor and indeed the division of the for knowledge ease can be applied in my view to only discipline I have also suggested that just as public sociology looks different in different countries so does the articulation of those four analogies look different got it but this is an inward look at sociology and public sociology however look outwards to public's to understand public sociology we have to understand the context within which it engages with publics we have to understand the world of communication in which sociology competes with so many other sources of information many supported by wealthy corporations or controlled by States each with their own interests public sociology operates therefore on a very uneven terrain a little rain of unequal power therefore to understand the possibilities and challenges of public sociology we need a theory of communication and power in the information age and there is no better person in the world know whether sociologists or non sociologists no better person to provide such a theory than manuel castells who will indeed with us next week so thank you very much [Applause] thank you so this class is about public sociology but it also is itself art it's an effort to have exemplified public sociology in the sense that here we're having a conversation both amongst ourselves but also with these people in parallel courses all over the world and through that conversation kind of constituting ourselves as a you know global public of both public sociologists so we want to begin that conversation today and open up discussion first with our own students here so anybody want to kind of begin and share their thoughts or any thoughts or questions stop it yeah okay so you describe your organic organic pathology as having a conversation with the public in the public engaging back with the sociologist but being seen as a sociologist or as a researcher already puts you in a position of dominance how how how to enter the sociologists and researchers how do we stop this stop ourselves from returning diamonds and taking over the conversation with the public and allowing the public to actually have a voice yeah what a pretty difficult first question yes we I think is a problem to this organic public sociology is indeed is a balanced relationship of mutuality reciprocity in which each the public genuinely has a conversation about its own views of the world with the sociologist who paths or sociologists who have their own also their own views their sociological perspective how can one have a balanced conversation ask the question have indeed incredibly difficult to actually execute such a balanced conversation but what is important is that one has that other goal even if one doesn't always achieve it and you should be aware that it's not always that the sociologist dominates the public often the public dominates the sociologist it's often the case that public's really constrain the way the sociologist can actually have a conversation with them so if you are working perhaps with trade unions in England and they're concerned with once and only their concern to keep their jobs your vision of an alternative type of society has to go by the board because they're not interested in that so it's a very difficult process to maintain this autonomy on the one hand and to resist the domination but at least we have a goal in mind at least we have a goal in mind and we should collectively engage in evaluating what we do all the time it should be a single sociologist going out there in the trenches we should be always working together collectively to see what ways we can actually restore that balance yeah good what yeah both speaking of gold you differentiate between like means and end-stage sociology and that explains what there's a goal so I was wondering is there one goal that you've nights before is there one thing asymmetry that suffice of what they all are the one thing that defines all those knowledge about suits you logical yes well that's a very interesting question they would take some non sociologists like yourself to ask that question indeed I think very important I mean we do have discussions about what is sociology what would unite all those four times and my own view is that sociology takes the standpoint of civil society political scientist standpoint in the state and economics the standpoint of the economy but none of our sociologists will agree on that and so many illnesses there are many different notions of sociology there are sociologists so it's an interesting question of whether what what extent this discussion we are having now about our discipline can lead us to a consensual view but all I can give you in a sense is my view of what sociology is sociology really is the standpoint of civil society those organizations institutions movements that are neither part of the state not part of the economy and we look at the world from the standpoint of that civil society a world that is actually the civil society these days is actually under threat from marketing state I was suggesting and so we are in a sense not only are we sociologists taking a standpoint of civil society but we are also in a sense in the process of defending civil society because that is indeed our foundational at our base so it's very important that we do defend it but yes I think it's a good question and perhaps we will come back to that puncayshun ask all the successive seminar leaders what they think sociology is about but yet but I think it's a very good question what actually makes all this sociological knowledge either for that of logic knowledge good yes Julie you claim there's a series a mutual dependence between public and professional sociology I was wondering if you believe that because social expended at times by the state and market forces if it biases professional sociology and therefore also public sociology funding by the state what effects have had on sociology but join us on apply art my question present in the context of the u.s. society how do we break away from some nation and professional physiology okay all right that's two slightly different questions but yes I mean where the state actually from sociology you have great difficulty in gaining the autonomy necessary for professional sociology in the Soviet Union it was very difficult to establish an autonomous professional sociology because it was basically regularly controlled and funded by the state a party state and indeed today intervene a lot are in post-soviet Russia a lot of the research is funded by not necessarily the state where the state does its indifference at Waialua research but also political parties politicians corporations so that means its policy is very strong and the problem for many sociologists then is how do we establish the professional sociology that could be a foundation of policy sociology how can we establish this autonomous professional serves on relatively long digression you're not in Russia today what they say my colleague learning driver Mr Loomis's public sociology in Russia today is the public defense of an autonomous professional sociology publicly defending an autonomous professional sociology so indeed we have to we have to actually be very careful in trying to establish an arena of autonomy for professional otherwise we don't have any of that sociology that will infuse the public in the policy world that's right yes so that's that's the challenge now Naomi's question about the professional dominating the public here we default on whether dominance of the policy she will ask me about the professional dominating the public how can we somehow in this country in particular somehow rescue a space for public sociology indeed indeed well that's what we're trying to do of course in this course and there are other places and in the country those are having courses in public sociology and we have to in a sense begin to try and incentivize them to demonstrate to the professional sociologists that they too have an interest in a vibrant public sociology in many countries actually the professional sociology only really and it's actually going to be dependent upon the public legitimacy of sociology therefore publics ourselves is very important well in this country it is independently funded in a sense if it provides it provides a disciplinary basic of like notes the fundly of sociologists country's largely comes from home and many students would take sociology courses that Lassard like there is funding from the state but the professional actually is autonomous because it is an accepted discipline in the university but it is there is an issue how come one build an autonomous probably set values a question that we will of course be addressing throughout the semester how to build a public sociology yeah appropriated fine wait wait wait stop well we'll say like five more minutes the question Torah question why you click on okay all right okay well that was an easy nobody needed cut all right all right it's the minute we start with your question um you've helped a little bit you talked about how your worth of work was appropriated by like corporations I was wondering what do you think public sociologists can do to protect their research and protect their and protect the public sort of gain some control over information yeah a good question well I'm somewhat castells will have something to say about this but let me say about that that particular study I did in Zambia in the form of what I would call traditional public I produced a report I thought well producer report tell the truth you know race has been reproduced in post-colonial Zambia hunky-dory and then somehow things will get better I was very young and in fact once you put something else out in the in the public sphere like that who knows what's going to happen to it so my reflection hour will be that perhaps I should have been an organic public physiologist I mean I should have had I would have more control of what happens to the knowledge if I had built a close relationship for example with the personnel officers up there the Zambian personnel officers on the mines or with the workers I had chosen a public to actually collaborate with and perhaps I would have a little bit more control I'll have a much more control and the visibility of course of the public sociology would be less but at least I would have a more a more collaborative relationship with publics whose interests I thought were important yeah stars wondering how do we deal with publics that may be in business and how then do we tap into the Republic and yeah that's very difficult how do we deal with public so you're invisible no I I think I would like to answer that question by talking about the way sociologists not just sociologists journalists to other social science is constituted a public which we all now recognize the public school women right or indeed we could talk about public the gay community these are public that have indeed being constituted and I think sociologists have played a role in that Constitution so I think our theoretical frameworks often lead us to anticipate the existence of public that are invisible and might then lead us to engage and constitute those public's we have now a sociology of gender we didn't really have a sociology of gender in the nineteen fifties and sixties get a family social but not sociology of gender me now are the sociology of sexuality sociologists can play a very important role in so far their constitution of public's becomes public if the categories they they use becoming resent public categories yeah okay so we have time for one last question would this actually mean that debate is not enough in the sense of very serious need for some social actions that have a facility civilly to actually create a public you mean create a public and also like make the invisible visible okay keep going yeah what I mean is also just with what you asked about to make the invisible visible there needs to be some kind of change in the sails all right laughing it involves it will involve sociologists actually are taking in shaping organization movements that actually Center the new category it may not be the sociologists who actually are taking that moves but the Socialists can provide an understanding of why that particular category is an important category in shaping understanding society yes so in the end public they'll just socially I'm going to speak women and suddenly women appear but they can provides or a necessary and necessary framework a necessary way of thinking and necessary if you wish ideology that actually provides the foundations for others to to grab hold of it it's and it's then becomes a relationship between sociologists and an emergent movement yeah thank you so sadly we don't have time left but we're going to continue this next week when Manuel Castells is here with us to talk about a series of communication and power and its implications for public sociology so let's thank Michael for starting us off thank you all okay

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