EWTN Live – 2019-08-29 – 08/28/19 Mike Aquilina


[MUSIC] [APPLAUSE]>>Fr. Pacwa: THANK YOU. THANK YOU. WELCOME, I’M FATHER MITCH PACWA AND WELCOME TO EWTN LIVE WHERE WE BRING YOU GUESTS FROM AROUND THE WORLD. TONIGHT, OUR GUEST IS AN AUTHOR OR EDITOR OF MORE THAN 40 BOOKS WITH A WIDE SPECTRUM OF PEOPLE, LIKE ROCK’N ROLL HALL OF FAMER, AND HERO OF MY YOUTH, DION DIMUCCI, ALL THE WAY TO SCOTT HAHN, WHOM HE WORKS CLOSELY WITH AT THE ST. PAUL CENTER FOR BIBLICAL THEOLOGY. HIS NEWEST BOOK, WHICH HE CO-AUTHORED WITH HIS GOOD FRIEND, JAMES PAPANDREA, IS TITLED, HOW CHRISTIANITY SAVED CIVILIZATION, AND MUST DO SO AGAIN. SO, PLEASE, WELCOME MR. MIKE AQUILINA. [APPLAUSE]>>Guest: THANKS FOR HAVING ME BACK.>>Father: GOOD TO HAVE YOU. I WAS LISTENING TO HIM WHEN HE FIRST CAME OUT.>>HE’S STILL TOURING. SO, THE OLE BOAT IS STILL ROCKING.>>I GUESS WE ARE. HE WAS ONE OF MY FAVORITES. HE’S A GREAT GUY. AT SCHOOL, YOU GET TO WORK WITH SOMEBODY LIKE HIM AND SCOTT HAHN, ANOTHER GREAT GUY, JUST TERRIFIC. THIS BOOK IS ACTUALLY A REEDITING OF AN EARLIER BOOK, DEALING WITH AN IMPORTANT SET OF THEMES. YOU HAVE SEVEN DIFFERENT THEMES IN WHICH YOU SHOW HOW THE CHRISTIAN CHURCH SAVED CIVILIZATION. SO OUR AUDIENCE UNDERSTANDS THE BACKGROUND ON THIS, MANY OF THEM MAY HAVE HEARD HOW IT WAS THAT THE CHURCH THAT BROUGHT THE DARK AGES, PEOPLE WHO LIVED IN WHAT THEY CALLED ABOUT THEMSELVES, THE ENLIGHTENMENT IN THE LATE 16 HUNDREDS AND 17 HUNDREDS. THESE ENLIGHTENMENT PEOPLE THOUGHT THAT THE CHURCH BROUGHT IN THE DARK AGES AND MADE PEOPLE INTO BARBARIANS AND THE CATHOLIC CHURCH STOPPED PEOPLE FROM READING AND WOULDN’T LET PEOPLE READ THE BIBLE AND EXCOMMUNICATED PEOPLE WHO LEARNED TO READ THE BIBLE AND THINGS LIKE THAT.>>Guest: URBAN LEGENDS.>>Fr. Pacwa: URBAN? I CALL THEM FLAT OUT LIES.>>Guest: WELL, THERE’S A LOT OF THAT GOING ON, YES.>>Fr. Pacwa: SO YOU, I TAKE IT DO NOT HOLD THAT THE CHURCH INVENTED THE DARK AGES?>>Guest: NO, AS A MATTER OF FACT, WHAT JIM AND I SAY IN THE BOOK IS THAT ANYTHING YOU LIKE THAT’S GOOD AND DISTINCTIVE ABOUT WESTERN CIVILIZATION PROBABLY CAME FROM THE CHURCH. PROBABLY IS A PECULIARLY CHRISTIAN CONTRIBUTION TO THE HISTORY OF CIVILIZATION.>>Fr. Pacwa: WELL, NOW, WAIT A MINUTE. THERE WAS THIS GREAT ROMAN CIVILIZATION THAT HAD ITSELF BEEN STRONGLY INFLUENCED BY THE GREEKS. ONCE THEY CONQUERED GREECE, THEY LOVED EVERYTHING THE GREEKS DID. THEY WERE GREAT ARTISTS, POETS, PLAY WRIGHTS AND PHILOSOPHERS, SCIENTISTS AND DOCTORS. SO, THEY LOVED THE GREEKS. AND THEY USED THE LOT FOR THEIR — WELL, I THOUGHT THEY CAME UP WITH ALL OF THE GOOD STUFF?>>Guest: THEY DID NOT HAVE THE IDEA, FOR EXAMPLE, OF HUMAN DIGNITY, OF HUMAN EQUALITY, OF HUMAN RIGHTS. THESE THINGS ARE SPECIFICALLY CHRISTIAN CONTRIBUTIONS TO THE DISCUSSION. IT WAS JESUS CHRIST WHO BROUGHT THESE IDEAS INTO THE WORLD, AND THEN CHRISTIANS WHO INTRODUCED THEM TO THE EMPIRE. THIS IS SOMETHING NEW. THERE WERE ALSO INSTITUTIONS THAT DID NOT EXIST BETWEEN CHRISTIANITY. HOSPITALS ARE A PRIME EXAMPLE. THERE WERE NO HOSPITALS BEFORE CHRISTIANITY. ONCE CHRISTIANITY WAS LEGAL, YOU NEEDED AT LEAST ONE HOSPITAL IN EVERY CITY. IT BECAME A STANDARD FEATURE, A MARK OF CIVILIZATION. I WOULD SAY THAT MOST OF THESE THINGS THAT WE HAVE, AND ENJOY, EVEN LOVE TODAY, ABOUT OUR SOCIETY, ABOUT OUR CULTURE ARE SPECIFICALLY CHRISTIAN CONTRIBUTIONS.>>Fr. Pacwa: NOW WAIT A MINUTE. THESE ARE BIG CLAIMS THAT YOU ARE MAKING HERE!>>GUEST: THEY ARE.>>Fr. Pacwa: AND LET’S GO THROUGH THEM ONE AT A TIME. NOW, ONE OF THE ISSUES THAT YOU BRING UP, YOU HAVE A CHAPTER ON THE HUMAN PERSON. THE GREEKS REFLECTED A LOT ON WHAT IT MEANT TO BE A PERSON. THE SOUL OF THE PERSON AND ALL THAT. ROMANS PICKED UP SOMETHING FROM THEM. WHAT DID THE CHURCH ADD WHEN IT COMES TO UNDERSTANDING HUMAN PERSONS?>>Guest: WELL THIS UNIVERSALITY OF DIGNITY, YOUR DIGNITY IS NOT BASED ON HOW MUCH MONEY YOU HAVE, NOT BASED ON YOUR ARISTOCRATIC HERITAGE NOR THE PROPERTY THAT YOU OWN. IF YOU GO BACK AND READ THE GREEKS, READ PLATO AND ARISTOTLE, YOU FIND THAT THEY ASSUMED CERTAIN THINGS. THEY ASSUMED THAT WOMEN WERE FAR INFERIOR TO MEN. WOMEN WERE PERPETUAL ADOLESCENTS. THEY ASSUMED THAT.>>AND THEY BELIEVED THAT MEN COULDN’T BE FRIENDS WITH WOMEN BECAUSE THEY WERE INHERENTLY INFERIOR AND ONLY COULD BE FRIENDS WITH SOMEBODY THAT WAS ON PAR WITH YOU. THAT WAS CERTAINLY A GREEK IDEA, YEAH.>>AND WOMEN AND CHILDREN AND SLAVES. NOT ONLY SLAVES BUT LABORERS, PLATO AND ARISTOTLE BOTH NOBLE MEN AND BIG THINKERS OBVIOUSLY AND EXTREMELY INFLUENTIAL. BUT THEY BELIEVED THAT PEOPLE WHO WORKED WITH THEIR HANDS WERE INNATELY INFERIOR TO PEOPLE WHO IS LEISURELY LIVES.>>ROMANS THOUGHT THAT TOO. BUT THEY THOUGHT THAT IF YOU HAD LEISURE THEN YOU COULD GET INTO POLITICS AND THAT MADE YOU A GOOD PERSON. [LAUGHTER]>>Fr. Pacwa: SORRY. SORRY.>>Guest: WELL, THAT’S TRUE.>>Fr. Pacwa: THEY DID THINK THAT. AND LABORERS WERE LOW BUT SLAVES, I GUESS IT IS TRUE THAT ROMANS THOUGHT THAT IF YOU OWNED SOMEBODY, A, YOU COULD OWN THEM AND B, IF YOU DID, YOU COULD MAKE THEM HAVE YOUR CHILDREN, IF THEY WERE FEMALES AND YOU COULD KILL THEM ANY TIME YOU WANT AND IN ANY WAY YOU WANT. AND THERE WAS NO PUNISHMENT FOR KILLING A SLAVE.>>AND WE’RE TALKING ABOUT A WIDE SWATH OF HUMANITY HERE. THERE WERE TIMES WHEN MOST OF THE PEOPLE LIVING IN ITALY, IN THE BOOT WERE SLAVES, MOST OF THE PEOPLE.>>NOT THE EMPIRE BUT IT WAS ABOUT 1/3 OF THE POPULATION. THAT’S PRETTY BAD. AND IT WAS NOTHING TO DO WITH RACE. THEY ENSLAVED ANYBODY.>>SURE, YOU COULD HAVE BEEN DELINQUENT IN YOUR TAXES ON THE COLONY AND WE’RE GOING TO BRING YOU A SLAVE AND YOU HAVE ALL OF THESE PEOPLE THAT ARE LESSER PEOPLE.>>AND I GUESS WHEN I THINK BACK ON THE ROMAN LAW, IF A FATHER DIDN’T LIKE HIS CHILD UP TO AGE 7, HE COULD JUST KILL HIM.>>Guest: THAT’S RIGHT.>>Fr. Pacwa: AND THEY COULD DO NOT ONLY ABORTION, BUT THEY COULD KILL THEIR CHILDREN UP TO AGE SEVEN. AND IT WAS WITH IMPUNITY.>>IT RARELY HAPPENED BUT IT DID HAPPEN AND IT WAS NOT PUNISHED.>>WELL, I GUESS THAT IS AN ATTACK ON DIGNITY. YEAH, THAT DOESN’T SOUND SO GOOD.>>Guest: SO, CHRISTIANITY INTRODUCED THE HUMAN DIGNITY, IDEA OF HUMAN DIGNITY BY PROCLAIMING THAT EVERYBODY IS MADE IN THE IMAGE AND LIKENESS OF GOD. WE’RE CREATED THIS WAY, WE’RE CREATED WITH THIS DIGNITY AND THAT WE’RE BEARING THAT LIKENESS IN THE WORLD. NOT ONLY OUR PEOPLE, IT’S ALL PEOPLE.>>Fr. Pacwa: AND THIS SENSE OF HAVING INHERENT DIGNITY THAT GOD GIVES, THE STATE DOESN’T GIVE IT TO YOU. THE EMPIRE DOESN’T GIVE IT TO YOU.>>Guest: RIGHT.>>Fr. Pacwa: NO SOCIAL CLASS GIVES IT TO YOU. GOD DOES. THAT DOES MAKE SOMETHING OF A DIFFERENCE. ALL RIGHT. SO, THERE YOU GOT THAT. INHERENT DIGNITY. NOW, WHAT ABOUT FAMILY. CERTAINLY ROMANS HAD FAMILIES.>>AND THEY BELIEVED IN THE NATURAL FAMILY AND ONE MAN, ONE WOMEN THEORETICALLY FOR LIFE, FOR THE PROPAGATION OF CHILDREN. AND ALL OF THIS THEORETICALLY THEY SIGNED ON TO. BUT THERE WERE PROBLEMS. BY THE TIME OF THE EMPIRE, THE ROMAN FAMILY WAS REALLY CRUMBLING.>>Fr. Pacwa: SO FOLKS UNDERSTAND, ROME STARTED OFF FOR ABOUT 250 YEARS AS A MONARCHY. THEY HAD KINGS. THEN, IT WAS A REPUBLIC FROM 509 UNTIL 130 OR SO. MAYBE 129. AND THEN, IN 129, 127, OCTAVIA MAKES HIMSELF EMPEROR AND THAT’S AN EMPIRE FOR THE NEXT 150 YEARS.>>AND IT’S EMPIRE WAS SOMETHING. HE MADE PEACE THAT WAS NO SMALL.>>WELL, WITHIN THERE, THERE WERE A LOT OF CIVIL WARS GOING ON. AND YOU KNOW, FROM, WHAT, THE 90BC ALL THE WAY UNTIL 30 OR SO, 34. SO, YOU HAD A LOT OF CIVIL WARS AND HE ENDED THAT.>>HE ERADICATED PIRACY ON THE SEA, OPENED UP THE TRADE ROUTES. UNPRECEDENTED ECONOMIC PROSPERITY AND THE TAXES WERE FLOWING INTO ROME, RIGHT? SO, EVERYBODY SHOULD HAVE BEEN HAPPY. EVERYBODY IN THE CAPITAL CITY WAS PROSPEROUS. BUT THERE WAS A PROBLEM. ALREADY, PEOPLE WERE KIND OF LIKING THIS LEISURELY LIFESTYLE AND WERE AVERSE TO HAVING CHILDREN. SO, THEY STOPPED HAVING CHILDREN. THEY STOPPED MARRYING AND ESPECIALLY THE A ARISTOCRATS. THEY WERE CONTRACEPTING, ABORTING, COMMITTING INFANTICIDE, NOT BRINGING IN A NEW GENERATIONS OF ROMANS. AND AUGUSTUS LIVED TO SEE THIS AND IT ALARMED HIM.>>WHAT DID HE DO ABOUT IT?>>HE ENACTED LAWS.>>Fr. Pacwa: WAIT A MINUTE. OCTAVIAN, CEASAR AUGUSTUS WAS NOT A BIG FAMILY MAN HIMSELF?>>HE WAS NOT. BUT HE WAS AN ASTUTE GOVERNOR. HE LIVED UP TO HIS OWN IDEALS, HE DIDN’T LIVE UP TO THEM. AND HE ONLY HAD ONE CHILD AND SHE KIND OF LIVED A SCANDALOUS LIFE. AND HE SAW A DEMOGRAPHIC WINTER COMING: NO ROMANS TO RUN THE EMPIRE BECAUSE THE ROMAN ARISTOCRATS WERE NOT HAVING CHILDREN. SO, HE ENACTED LAWS TO MAKE THEM HAVE CHILDREN. HE OUTLAWED BACHELORHOOD AND SPINSTER HOOD. IF YOU REMAINED A BACHELOR OR IF YOU WERE A WOMEN WHO DIDN’T MARRY, YOU HAD TO PAY HEAVIER TAX BURDEN. SO, IF YOU HAVE MORE CHILDREN, LESS TAXES. AND IF YOU HAD A LARGE FAMILY, IN FACT, HE WAS GIVING REWARDS ALL OF THESE REWARDS FOR HAVING CHILDREN. YOU GOT MONEY FROM THE STATE IF YOU HAD MORE CHILDREN.>>Fr. Pacwa: I’M SURE THAT WORKED.>>Guest: NO, IT DID NOT WORK. PEOPLE LOOKED AT THE FINES AND THEY SAID, I KIND OF LIKE MY LONG VACATIONS EVERY YEAR. IF I HAVE KIDS I’M NOT GOING TO BE ABLE TO HAVE THOSE. KIDS CREATE ALL KINDS OF PROBLEMS, THEY BOG YOU DOWN. AND THEY DIDN’T HAVE CHILDREN. HE TRIED TO SHAME THEM INTO HAVING CHILDREN. AT ONE EVENT, HE SEPARATED THE MARRIED MEN FROM THE ARISTOCRACY AND THEN HE PRAISED THE MARRIED MEN AND SHAMED THE OTHERS BY SAYING, WHAT AM I TO CALL YOU. YOU ARE NOT ACTING LIKE MEN SO I CAN’T CALL YOU MEN. YOU ARE NOT ACTING LIKE CITIZENS. YOU CARE NOTHING FOR THE CITY. YOU DON’T CARE ABOUT ROME. IF ALL PEOPLE DID, THE WORLD WOULD BE DEPOPULATED. SO, HE TRIES TO SHAME THEM AND IT STILL DOESN’T WORK. THEY LOOK AT THE FINES AND THEY SAY I CAN AFFORD THAT. AND THEY PAY THE FINES AND NOT HAVE CHILDREN. AND THIS REMAINED A PROBLEM IN ROME FOR TWO CENTURIES, JUST KEPT ON KEEPING ON AND KEPT DECLINING.>>Fr. Pacwa: AND THAT’S WHEN THE PLAGUES BEGAN TO COME IN THE THIRD CENTURY, 250’S AND LATER ON, THERE WERE EVEN MORE DEVASTATING DROPS IN POPULATION.>>SURE.>>AND FOR THE FIRST TIME IN HISTORY, ROME OUTLAWED ABORTION IN ORDER TO GET PEOPLE TO KEEP THESE BABIES. BUT IT DIDN’T WORK. EVEN WHEN THEY DID THAT, IT DIDN’T WORK. WHAT’S INTERESTING IS THAT THEY GOT TO THAT POINT BECAUSE THEY SAW THAT THE CHRISTIANS WERE REPRODUCING. THEY SAW THAT THE CHRISTIAN MARRIAGES WERE LASTING. THEY WERE LIFELONG AND THEY WERE FRUITFUL. THEY ENVIED THAT. THEY TRIED TO LEGISLATE IT INTO BEING AND THEY COULDN’T DO IT.>>Fr. Pacwa: NO, NO. YOU KNOW, WE CERTAINLY SEE IN OUR OWN CULTURE TODAY, NOW, THE MAJORITY OF ADULTS ARE NOT MARRIED MARRIED AND CERTAINLY THE MAJORITY OF CHILDREN ARE BORN OUT OF WEDLOCK. OVER 52%, THE LAST FIGURE THAT I HEARD. AND THEN, OF COURSE, WE STILL HAVE FAR TOO HIGH ABORTION RATES, THEY HAVE COME DOWN BUT SHOULD BE ZERO. AND YOU KNOW, WE’RE NOT DUPLICATING OURSELVES, NOT REPLENISHING OUR POPULATION.>>SO, CHRISTIANS MODELED HEALTHY FAMILIES. AND THEY MODELED HAPPY FAMILIES. AND WHEN SOCIOLOGISTS LOOK BACK ON THAT, THEY SPECULATE THAT THAT IS REALLY WHAT DROVE A LOT OF THE CONVERSIONS TO CHRISTIANITY. PEOPLE LOOKED AT THE HOMES AND THEY SAID, I WANT WHAT THESE PEOPLE HAVE. AND THEY TRIED TO LIVE THAT WAY. THAT’S HOW PEOPLE WERE BROUGHT INTO THE CHURCH. NOW, THE CHURCH, WHAT IT MEANS TO BE A PERSON, WHAT IT MEANS TO BE A FAMILY. AND YOU TALK ABOUT THE CHURCH’S CHANGE ON WORK AND WHAT SHOULD WE CONTRIBUTE ABOUT THAT.>>Guest: WELL, THAT’S INTERESTING TO ME BECAUSE THAT’S SOMETHING PEOPLE DON’T TALK A LOT ABOUT. WE DO HEAR OF SOME OF THE OTHER TEACHINGS. BUT WE REALLY DID CHANGE THE ATTITUDES ON WORK. AS I SAID BEFORE, PLATO AND ARISTOTLE DIDN’T THINK MUCH OF DAY LABORERS, IF YOU HAD TO WORK WITH YOUR HANDS FOR A LIVING, YOU WERE INFERIOR HUMAN BEING. AND THEN CHRISTIANS WORSHIPED A MAN WHO WORKED WITH HIS HANDS FOR A LIVING. AND THEN GO DOWN, YOU FIND OUT THAT THE HEROES OF BIBLICAL RELIGION WORKED HARD, HERDSMEN, FARMERS, SAILORS.>>Fr. Pacwa: WELL, JESUS HIMSELF AND HIS FOSTER FATHER, JOSEPH WERE CARPENTERS.>>RIGHT, TENT MAKERS, FISHERMEN, AND THEY ARE HARD-WORKING MEN. AND THERE’S A NEW DIGNITY OF WORK. AND JESUS HIMSELF SPEAKS OF GOD AS A LABORER. HIS FATHER IS STILL WORKING. I’M STILL WORKING AND MY FATHER IS WORKING STILL. SO, THE FATHERS OF THE CHURCH REALLY EMPHASIZED THIS IN THEIR TEACHING. OKAY. AND THEY TOLD PEOPLE TO IMAGINE THEMSELVES WORKING, BESIDES JESUS CHRIST WHEN THEY GO OUT TO THEIR JOBS. AND THE LITURGY ITSELF TOOK THIS INTO ACCOUNT. BECAUSE YOU HAVE THIS OFFERTORY WHERE PEOPLE BLOT THE ACTUAL FRUITS OF THEIR LABOR INTO THE CHURCH AND PLACE THEM AT THE ALTAR. THE OLIVES, FRESHLY-PRESSED OIL, GRAPES, WHEAT. ALL OF THESE THINGS THAT THEY HAD CREATED WITH THEIR LABORS. AND SO THEY CONSECRATED THEIR LIVES TO GOD AND THERE WAS A DIGNITY IN LABOR.>>Father Pacwa: NOW WE CELEBRATE THE FEAST OF ST. JOSEPH THE WORKER. AND THAT HAPPENS TO BE LABOR DAY IN MOST COUNTRIES EXCEPT FOR THE UNITED STATES. IT WAS A DAY ALSO USED BY COMMUNISTS TO CELEBRATE THE HAY MARKET STREET RIOTS IN CHICAGO BACK IN THE 1870’S. NOW, THE COMMUNISTS HAVE HAD THEIR FINAL CLEARANCE, CLOSEOUT SALE ON MARX AND STALIN AND LENIN, BUT I DON’T KNOW. WE STILL DO CELEBRATE ST. JOSEPH, GIVING DIGNITY TO WORKERS. RATHER THAN ENCOURAGING WORKERS TO RISE UP AND TAKE OVER. WE SEE THERE’S A DIGNITY TO WORK.>>Guest: SOMETHING DIVINE.>>Fr. Pacwa: YEAH, THIS IS SOMETHING — AND IN FACT, WHEN YOU LOOK BACK ON THE CREATION. GOD CREATED MAN AND WOMAN TO TILL THE SOIL AND WORK WITH IT. AND ALSO, THE MEANING OF RELIGION HAS CHANGED. AND YOU MENTIONED RELIGION AND GOVERNMENT. THIS HAS CHANGED. WHAT’S CHANGED THERE. ROMANS HAD RELIGION. OFTEN, AUGUSTUS WAS THE HIGH PRIEST, PONTIFICUS MAXIMUS AND SO WAS JULIUS CEASAR. SO, WHAT CHANGED?>>WELL, SCHOLARS POINT OUT THERE’S A DIFFERENCE IN RELIGION WHEN YOU GET TO CHRISTIANITY. YOU CAN’T FIND TOO MANY INSTANCES OF WHAT WE NOW CALL WORLD RELIGIONS THAT — WELL, THOSE RELIGIONS, I MEAN GREEK AND ROMAN RELIGIONS ESPECIALLY. RELIGION WAS A TRANSACTION, IT WAS PART OF YOUR LIFE. IT WAS NOT THE TOTALITY OF YOUR LIFE. OKAY. THE GOD’S DID NOT DEMAND ANY COMMITMENT FROM YOU, YOU COULD MOVE FROM ONE ALTAR TO ANOTHER IN THE COURSE OF AN AFTERNOON, DIDN’T MATTER. YOU WERE OFFERING SACRIFICE TO THE DIFFERENT GOD’S AND THAT WAS OKAY ACCORDING TO THEIR RELIGION.>>Fr. Pacwa: AND IT WAS NOT SO MUCH A DEAL THAT YOU LOVED THE GOD’S. IT WAS JUST THAT YOU DON’T TICK THEM OFF. THAT WAS THE BIG CONCERN.>>Guest: IT DIDN’T MAKE A DIFFERENCE IN YOUR LIFE REALLY UNLESS YOU GOT WHAT YOU OFFERED SACRIFICE FOR. THEN YOU WOULD SAY, OH, IT MADE A DIFFERENCE THERE. BUT THERE WAS REALLY NO CONNECTION BETWEEN RELIGION AND MORALITY.>>Fr. Pacwa: NO. NO. NO TEN COMMANDMENTS.>>AND THE GOD’S DIDN’T LIVE ACCORDING TO ANY MORALITY. THEY LIVED ABOVE THAT BECAUSE THEY WERE GODS. THEY WERE ADULTERERS, MURDERS. THEY WERE TERRIBLE. BUT THE GOD’S THEMSELVES MADE NO CLAIMS ON YOUR CONSCIENCE. YOU COULD GO YOUR WAY, DO WHATEVER YOU WANT. DIDN’T EFFECT YOUR RELATIONSHIP.>>JUST TO GO AND OFFEND THE GOD’S, THAT’S WHAT THEY DID DEMAND.>>YOU PLEASED THEM THROUGH SACRIFICE AND THAT’S ALL.>>Fr. Pacwa: THAT’S IT.>>Guest: YOU JUST –>>Fr. Pacwa: AND THE RITUALS, THEY HAD TO BE EXACTLY DONE OR THEY HAD TO START ALL OVER AND DO THEM AGAIN BECAUSE THE GOD’S WOULD GET MAD IF YOU DIDN’T DO IT EXACTLY CORRECTLY AND YOU DID NOT WANT THE GOD’S MAD AT YOU.>>YOU ARE INDULGING THE VANITY OF THE GOD, THAT’S WHAT YOU ARE DOING. AND THAT’S THE WAY IT WAS. CHRISTIANITY CAME ALONG AND SAID, NO, WHAT THE ONE GOD IS DEMANDING IS A TOTAL COMMITMENT TO YOU AND HE WILL HAVE A COMPLETE CLAIM ON YOUR CONSCIENCE, TELL YOU WHAT’S RIGHT AND WHAT’S WRONG. AND YOU WILL LOVE HIM WITH ALL YOUR HEART, MIND, SOUL, AND STRENGTH. THIS IS SOMETHING APPEARING ON THE SCENE FOR THE FIRST TIME IN THE HISTORY OF RELIGION. NOW, IT WAS THERE IN THE OLD TESTAMENT. BUT THIS IS REALLY THAT BEING BLASTED OUT TO THE GENTILES, TO THE WHOLE WORLD FOR THE FIRST TIME.>>Fr. Pacwa: AND THIS WAS ONE OF THE REASONS THAT THE ROMAN GOVERNMENT WOULD PERSECUTE CHRISTIANS. THERE WAS JUST A TOTALLY DIFFERENT RELATIONSHIP BETWEEN THE GOVERNMENT AND RELIGION.>>Guest: SURE. AND THAT’S THE LAST REVOLUTION WE DISCUSSED IN THE BOOK, THE REVOLUTION OF THE STATE. NOW, WHAT’S INTERESTING IS, HOW DID THAT COME ABOUT. WELL, IN THE ROMAN SOCIETY, WHO MADE DECISIONS REGARDING RELIGION? WHO DECIDED WHICH FEASTS WOULD BE CELEBRATED. WHICH GOD’S WOULD BE HONORED? THE EMPEROR. SO, WE COULD SAY THAT THE EMPEROR IS ABOVE ALL THE GOD’S BECAUSE HE’S THE ONE THAT MANAGES THE PUBLIC CULT. WORSHIP THIS ONE AND DON’T WORSHIP THAT ONE. AND I WANT ALL OF YOU TO BE THERE, I WANT ALL OF YOU TO HAVE THE CERTIFICATE. SO, THE EMPEROR IS ABOVE ALL THE GODS.>>IN FACT, IN THE 280S, TO OVERCOME CHRISTMAS, THE EMPEROR INTRODUCED SAUL AND VICTUS, ON DECEMBER 25, AFTER THE CHRISTIANS ALREADY HAD BEEN CELEBRATING CHRISTMAS FOR, WELL, OVER 150 YEARS.>>Guest: SURE. SURE.>>Fr. Pacwa: IF NOT EARLIER.>>Guest: SO, CHRISTIANITY INTRODUCED THIS REVOLUTION IN THINKING ABOUT RELIGION. AND FOR THE FIRST TIME, THE STATE WAS NOT IN CHARGE OF ALL OF THE AFFAIRS. THE STATE WAS, IN FACT JUDGED BY THE GOD OF THE CHRISTIANS.>>Fr. Pacwa: RIGHT.>>Guest: AND THIS IS THE FIRST TIME WE SEE THIS HAPPENING IN HISTORY. THE STATES CAN BE HELD TO A HIGHER STANDARD. THEY HAD TO ANSWER TO A HIGHER AUTHORITY.>>THEY DIDN’T SET THE NORMS, THEY HAD TO ANSWER THE NORMS.>>AND THE BISHOPS OF THE FOURTH AND FIFTH CENTURY CONSTANTLY SCHOOLED THE CHRISTIAN EMPERORS IN THIS IDEA BECAUSE THE CHRISTIAN EMPERORS RESISTED IT MIGHTILY.>>Fr. Pacwa: AND EVEN A PRETTY GOOD CHRISTIAN LIKE THEODOSIUS. I MEAN, HE KILLED A LOT OF PEOPLE AND GOT EXCOMMUNICATED BY AMBROSE, AND ALL THAT.>>GUEST: AND HE WAS DISCIPLINED IN PUBLIC BY AMBROSE BEFORE HE COULD COME BACK TO COMMUNION.>>Fr. Pacwa: HE’S SOMETHING. WE SEE THAT THE CHURCH STOOD UP AGAINST THESE INSTITUTIONS BECAUSE OF THEIR COMMITMENT TO CHRIST AND HIS TEACHING. THEY DID WHAT HE DEMANDED. THEY WERE NOT TRYING TO BE REVOLUTIONARIES AGAINST THE GOVERNMENT, THEY WERE TRYING TO BE FAITHFUL TO CHRIST.>>Guest: SURE. THEY FOLLOWED HIS EXAMPLE. AND WHAT DO WE SEE IN HIS EXAMPLE. HE PAID TAXES, HE OBEYED THE LAW. AND THEY FOLLOWED THOSE THINGS, AS THEY POINTED OUT, THEY WERE BETTER CITIZENS THAN MANY OF THE ROMAN PAGANS.>>Fr. Pacwa: AND STILL THEY WOULD BE PERSECUTED. AND THIS BRINGS US TO WHAT WE MUST DO AGAIN. WE DID THIS IN THE TIME OF THE ROMAN EMPIRE AND BROUGHT ABOUT A CHANGE JUST WHEN THE EMPIRE COLLAPSED. THE CHURCH WAS ABLE TO SAVE WHAT WAS GOOD AND MOVE FORWARD AND INVENT EUROPEAN CULTURE.>>Guest: YES.>>Fr. Pacwa: WHAT ABOUT TODAY? YOU KNOW, TODAY, IF ANYTHING, I SEE TENDENCIES OF TRYING TO GO BACK TO SOME OF THESE ROMAN MODELS AND CHALLENGING THE CHURCH. YOU KNOW, NOT TO INTERFERE WITH WHAT THEY ARE JUDGING US BY THEIR STANDARDS. AND THIS HAS BEEN GOING ON, YOU KNOW, THROUGH THE 20TH CENTURY.>>Guest: SURE.>>Fr. Pacwa: THAT’S WHY THERE HAVE BEEN 40 MILLION MARTYRS IN THE 20TH CENTURY. AND WE’RE STILL SEEING THAT A LOT OF PEOPLE WHO OPPOSED THE CHURCH ARE TRYING TO ATTACK US AND MAKE US GO BACK, BACKWARDS FROM OUR POSITION.>>Guest: THAT’S RIGHT. AND THEY ARE DOING IT IN PRECISELY THESE AREAS. THEY ARE ATTACKING THESE IDEAS, UNIVERSAL HUMAN DIGNITY. AND ATTACKING IDEAS LIKE HUMAN EQUALITY.>>Fr. Pacwa: FOR INSTANCE, THE IDEA THAT YOU KNOW, YOU CAN KILL AN UNBORN CHILD.>>Guest: OR EVEN A BORN CHILD NOW! THINK ABOUT THIS.>>Fr. Pacwa: RIGHT, THE GOVERNOR OF NEW YORK, GOVERNOR CUOMO SIGNED THAT LAW AND THE GOVERNOR OF VIRGINIA WANTS TO. AND OTHERS ARE TALKING ABOUT IT.>>Guest: IT SEEMS TO BE FASHIONABLE NOW FOR POLITICIANS TO BACK OFF WHEN ASKED QUESTIONS ABOUT WHETHER THEY OPPOSE INFANTICIDE. WE CAN SEE IT’S CREEPING IN AT A RATHER ALARMING RATE.>>Fr. Pacwa: YEAH. AND THEY DON’T SEEM TO HAVE A PRINCIPLE. I WAS LISTENING TO ONE OF THE CANDIDATES BEING CHALLENGED BY A YOUNG MAN WHO SAID, LOOK, I WAS BORN, ON THIS DATE IN THIS YEAR. AND YOU ARE SAYING THAT IT’S OKAY, YOU ARE SAYING THAT I COULD BE DONE AWAY WITH, THE DAY BEFORE I WAS BORN. AND HE SAID, NO, NO. I’M NOT TRYING TO ATTACK YOU. YOU KNOW, YOUR MOTHER COULD DECIDE. WE’LL GIVE YOUR MOTHER PERMISSION TO KILL YOU. THAT’S WHAT HE IS SAYING.>>Guest: RIGHT. AND THE EARLY CHRISTIANS KNEW SOLIDARITY UNIVERSALLY AND FOR THE FIRST TIME, NOT THINKING TRIBALLY, WE WERE THINKING SOLIDARITY. AND THAT’S THE FIRST TIME IN HISTORY, THAT ANY INSTITUTION COULD BEAR THAT NAME CATHOLIC.>>Fr. Pacwa: AND AT THIS TIME, WE ONLY SEE PEOPLE GOING THROUGH IDENTITY PROBLEMS.>>TOTAL FRAGMENTATION.>>AND TODAY IS THE ANNIVERSARY OF REVEREND DOCTOR MARTIN LUTHER KING GREAT SPEECH, AND HE HOPED THAT HIS CHILDREN AND ALL CHILDREN WOULD NO LONGER BE JUDGED ON THE COLOR OF THEIR SKIN BUT BY THEIR QUALITIES OF THE PERSON. AND HE WAS A CHRISTIAN. AND NOW WE SEE PEOPLE DIVIDING OVER OTHER IDENTITIES. FLAT CONTRARY TO MARTIN LUTHER KING’S PRINCIPLE. THIS IS HIGHLY PROBLEMATIC. AND WHAT ABOUT THE — YOU KNOW, WE HAVE, IT’S NOT IN THE CONSTITUTION. BUT WE ARE, OUR SUPREME COURT HAS BROUGHT US TO A POSITION OF SEPARATION CHURCH AND STATE. AND YOU KNOW, HOW DOES THAT RELATE TO THE ROLE OF RELIGION IN GOVERNMENT TODAY.>>Guest: WE CAN SEE THE WAY IT’S BEING USED. IT’S BEING USED TO KIND OF SPANK THE CHURCH AND MOVE THE CHURCH OUT OF THE POSITION WHERE IT CAN JUDGE ANY ACTION OF THE STATE. WE WANT TO NEUTRALIZE CHRISTIANITY, SILENCE THAT VOICE.>>Fr. Pacwa: AS A MATTER OF FACT, WHEN THOMAS JEFFERSON HAD WRITTEN IN A LETTER, THAT PHRASE OF A WALL OF SEPARATION BETWEEN CHURCH AND STATE, IT WAS TO PROTECT THE CHURCH FROM THE STATE.>>Guest: YES. AND THAT’S WHERE YOU REALLY NEED THE PROTECTION. IF YOU LOOK AT THE EMPEROR JULIAN WHO, IN THE FOURTH CENTURY, TRIED TO REPAGANIZE THE EMPIRE AFTER IT CONVERTED TO CHRISTIANITY. WHAT DID HE DO. HE TRIED TO REMOVE CHRISTIANS FROM THE PUBLIC SQUARE.>>Fr. Pacwa: THAT’S RIGHT.>>Guest: HE DIDN’T MAKE MARTYRS BECAUSE HE KNEW THAT THE MARTYRS MADE MORE CHRISTIANS, THE BLOOD OF THE MARTYRS IS THE SEED OF THE CHURCH AND HE KNEW THAT. HE TRIED TO REMOVE CHRISTIANS FROM THE PROFESSIONS. AND HE TRIED TO MAKE THE PROFESSIONS SO ICKY FOR CHRISTIANS THAT THEY WOULDN’T WANT TO PRACTICE THEM. SO, MOVE THEM OUT OF EDUCATION FIRST. THEN OUT OF THE LAW. THEN OUT OF THE UPPER ECHELONS OF THE MILITARY, ALL OF THE PLACES WHERE THEY COULD HAVE AN INFLUENCE AND MARGINALIZE THEM.>>THIS IS WHAT SENATORS FEINSTEIN AND HERONO HAVE SAID. THEY HAVE CHALLENGED PEOPLE ON THE FACT OF CANDIDATES FOR JUDGES, MEMBERS OF THE KNIGHTS OF COLUMBUS THEREFORE ARE COMMITTED CATHOLICS.>>AND THE DOGMA LIVES LOUDLY IN YOU AND THAT’S A BAD THING.>>Fr. Pacwa: THAT WAS SENATOR FEINSTEIN’S SAYING, YEAH, THINK SHE SAID THAT IN THE HEARING ABOUT A JUDGE. THAT’S THE CONSTITUTION PROHIBITS RELIGIOUS CONSIDERATIONS THIS IS SOMETHING WE’RE SEEING. WHY ARE PEOPLE DOING THIS. WHY ARE PEOPLE TRYING TO GO BACK TO THIS PAGAN MENTALITY?>>WELL, I THINK IT’S CHRISTO-PHOBIA, A FEAR OF CHRIST, A REVULSION TOWARD CHRIST AND WANTING TO DRIVE HIM AWAY FROM THE PUBLIC SQUARE BECAUSE HE’S A THREAT TO THE THINGS THAT MANY OF THESE PEOPLE ARE PROMOTING. THE ABORTION LICENSE, THIS MOVE TOWARD INFANTICIDE, TOWARD EUTHANASIA, ALL OF THESE THINGS, TO ALL OF THESE THINGS CHRIST PRESENTS AN OBSTACLE.>>Fr. Pacwa: AND I’LL NEVER EVER FORGET WHEN THE HEALTHCARE BILL WAS COMING UP. AND THEN SPEAKER PELOSI HAD SAID, WE HAVE TO INCLUDE ABORTION. THINK OF ALL OF THE MONEY WE’LL SAVE. SHE SAID THAT! BECAUSE THEY CAN’T AFFORD THE HEALTHCARE BUSINESS. SO, DON’T LET CHILDREN GET CONCEIVED OR KILL THEM IN THE WOMB TO SAVE MONEY. AND I SAID THEN, THE NEXT STEP IS GOING TO BE GETTING RID OF THE OLD PEOPLE. BECAUSE OLD PEOPLE ARE EVEN MORE EXPENSIVE THAN BABIES. AND FOR THAT SAKE, THEY WOULD BE WILLING TO DO THAT. LOOK, WE HAVE TO TAKE A BREAK AND WE’RE GOING TO COME BACK AND CONTINUE THIS CONVERSATION. WE’LL GET YOU INVOLVED BY YOU CALLING INTO THE SHOW FOR YOUR PERSPECTIVES ON THESE ISSUES. AND THE IMPACT THAT THE CHURCH CAN AND SHOULD HAVE IN OUR CULTURE. SO, PLEASE, STAY WITH US! [APPLAUSE] [MUSIC] [MUSIC] [APPLAUSE]>>Fr. Pacwa: ALL RIGHT. ANY QUESTIONS?>>Guest: I’M READY WHEN YOU ARE.>>Fr. Pacwa: ALL RIGHT. READY WHEN THEY ARE. TIM, ARE YOU THERE? IS TIM THERE? OH, NO, NOT A CALLER. OKAY. ALL RIGHT. SO, SOMEBODY IN WISCONSIN SENT THIS IN. OKAY. HE’S NOT ON THE PHONE. BUT HE SAID, WITH SO MUCH CORRUPTION IN THE CHURCH, DO PEOPLE TAKE HER SERIOUSLY ANY MORE? THIS IS A VERY IMPORTANT QUESTION.>>Guest: IT IS AN IMPORTANT QUESTION. AND I THINK THAT THE SCANDALS HAVE WEAKENED THE PUBLIC VOICE OF THE CHURCH, THE MORAL AUTHORITY OF THE HIERARCHY. AND WE HAVE TO HAVE A COUPLE OF THINGS. NUMBER ONE, WHO IS THE CHURCH? THE CHURCH FOR MY NEXT DOOR NEIGHBOR IS ME. IT’S NOT THE BISHOP. IT’S NOT THE PASTOR. IT’S ME. MY NEXT DOOR NEIGHBOR KNOWS I’M CATHOLIC AND MY LIFE COMMUNICATES TO THEM WHAT A CATHOLIC LIFE SHOULD BE. NOW, I’LL BE HELD ACCOUNTABLE FOR THAT. AND I BELIEVE THAT CONVERSIONS COME MOSTLY AND HAVE ALWAYS COME THROUGH THAT KIND OF WITNESS. NOT BECAUSE A BISHOP IS STANDING IN THE PUBLIC SQUARE SHOUTING AT THE TOP OF HIS VOICE AND REALLY MOVING PEOPLE THAT WAY. IT WAS NOT THAT WAY IN THE EARLY CHURCH. OKAY? THERE WERE NO MASS MEDIA. SO, THE BISHOPS REALLY HAD NO MASS VOICE BY WHICH THEY COULD REACH OTHER PEOPLE. HOW DID THEY REACH THE CROWDS? THROUGH PEOPLE LIKE US. ORDINARY PEOPLE WHO WERE LIVING IN ORDINARY NEIGHBORHOODS. SO, THE MORAL AUTHORITY OF THE CHURCH DOES NOT DEPEND SO MUCH UPON THE BISHOPS AS IT DEPENDS UPON THE QUALITY OF THE LIVES OF INDIVIDUAL CATHOLICS AND THEIR FAMILIES. THEIR HOMES. ARE WE LIVING SO THAT OUR HOMES ARE ATTRACTIVE TO THESE PEOPLE? FATHER MITCH, I CANNOT THINK AND THIS MAY BE SCANDALOUS TO THINK BUT I CANNOT THINK OF A PERIOD IN HISTORY WHEN BISHOPS WERE THE SHINING LIGHT OF THE CATHOLIC CHURCH. CAN YOU?>>Fr. Pacwa: UHM. UH, I DON’T WANT TO GET IN TROUBLE. BUT HERE IS WHAT I WOULD SAY. THERE HAVE BEEN A NUMBER OF PERIODS, THIS IS ABOUT OUR FOURTH PERIOD OF MAJOR CORRUPTION. BACK IN THE FOURTH AND FIFTH CENTURY, THE MAJORITY OF BISHOPS WERE ARIAN HERETICS.>>Fr. Pacwa: AND YET PEOPLE LOOK AT THAT LIKE THE GOLDEN AGE.>>Fr. Pacwa: THERE WERE GREAT SAINTS.>>THAT’S WHY. AND THERE’S GREAT SAINTS TODAY!>>Fr. Pacwa: YEAH. AND THEN, IN THE TENTH CENTURY, IN THE FIRST HALF OF THE 11TH, IT WAS HORRENDOUS. IT IS WORSE THAN IT IS NOW.>>Guest: MUCH.>>Fr. Pacwa: THEN I CAN LOOK BACK AND I CAN SEE THAT IT WAS GREAT BISHOPS AND CARDINALS LIKE SAINT PETER DAMIEN AND POPE GREGORY VII AND A NUMBER OF OTHERS WHO REALLY DID MAKE A CHANGE.>>Guest: AND NOT ONLY THAT, I WOULD SAY THAT MANY THOUSANDS OF CATHOLICS WHOSE NAMES WE’LL NEVER KNOW WHO LIVED THEIR FAITH IN HEROIC WAYS, IN NEIGHBORHOODS AND MADE A DIFFERENCE IN THE LIVES OF THEIR NEIGHBORS.>>Fr. Pacwa: YEAH.>>Guest: I BELIEVE REALLY THAT’S THE ENGINE OF HISTORY, NOT SO MUCH THE STUFF WE FIND IN THE DOCUMENTS. NOT SO MUCH THE STUFF WE FIND IN THE ARCHIVES. IT’S THE STUFF IN THE LIVES OF ORDINARY FOLKS, IN ORDINARY NEIGHBORHOODS, LIVING THEIR FAITH, DAY TO DAY IN A WAY THAT’S ATTRACTIVE TO THEIR NEIGHBORS.>>Fr. Pacwa: IT’S AMAZING WHEN YOU LOOK BACK ON HOW AWFUL THE TENTH CENTURY PAPACY WAS. IT WAS WORSE THAN THE RENAISSANCE BY FAR.>>BENEDICT IX.>>Fr. Pacwa: AND ALSO WHEN THE SLAVIC PEOPLE WERE EVANGELIZED AND WHOLE NEW AREAS. AND THE NORSEMEN, THE VIKINGS, THEY WERE EVANGELIZED AND IT CHANGED THEIR CULTURE. I WOULD SAY, FOR THE BETTER. SO, YEAH, AGAIN, YOU CAN SEE THAT THERE WERE GREAT CHANGES AMONGST THE BISHOPS AND CARDINALS AFTER PAUL III IN THE 16TH CENTURY AND THEN YOU SAW A LOT OF RISE IN THE GOOD AND HOLY BISHOPS. WE’VE BEEN BLESSED, IN OUR AMERICAN HISTORY. A LOT OF THE BISHOPS HAVE BEEN EXCELLENT, EXCELLENT MISSIONARIES. BUT WE’VE HAD A PERIOD OF WEAKNESS THAT I THINK DUE TO THE SEXUAL REVOLUTION. THE CHURCH SCANDALS COME WHEN CHURCH LEADERS, THE CLERGY AND THE BISHOPS, SOME OF THE CARDINALS, THE PROBLEM COMES WHEN THOSE CLERGY ACCEPT THE PRINCIPLES OF THE SECULAR WORLD WHEN THEY ACT LIKE THE CULTURE. THAT’S WHEN THEY GO DOWN. AND THEY BECOME OFTENTIMES WORSE THAN OTHER FOLKS. IT SEEMS WORSE BECAUSE OF THE KIND OF CRIMES THAT THEY DO.>>Guest: SO WE’RE HOBBLED A LITTLE BIT. BUT I WOULD SAY THE HISTORY OF THE EARLY CHURCH SHOULD GIVE US HOPE BECAUSE WE HAVE MUCH MORE AT OUR DISPOSAL, MANY MORE RESOURCES THAN THE FIRST CHRISTIANS HAD AND THE CHRISTIANS FIRST HAD. AND YET, THE CHURCH GREW AT A STEADY RATE OF 40% PER DECADE. 40% PER DECADE. WE HAVE SO MUCH MORE NOW AND WE’RE NOWHERE NEAR THAT RATE.>>Fr. Pacwa: AND SOMETHING, TOO I EMPHASIZE, THE CAVING BY SO MANY PEOPLE IN THE CHURCH OF THE SEXUAL REVOLUTION, RIGHT WHEN THE SEXUAL REVOLUTION REALLY KICKS OFF IN 1967, 1968, 1969, THAT LATE 1960’S, PERIOD, IT WAS NOT JUST THE UNITED STATES AND IT WAS IN WESTERN EUROPE TOO. AND POPE SAINT PAUL VI, HUMANE VITAE, AND THEY COULD SEE THERE WAS AN ISOLATION OF THE PROCREATIVE AND THE LOVING PART LOVING MERIT AND ISOLATING SEX FROM PROCREATION AND FOLKS ONLY FOR PROCREATION, THAT IN DEFENSE OF CATHOLIC TRADITIONAL TEACHING WAS MET BY THEOLOGIANS AND THE BISHOPS OF CANADA THAT DAY, THEY FOUGHT AGAINST HIM AND MANY OTHER BISHOPS REFUSED TO TEACH IT.>>AND POPE SAINT PAUL SAID ONCE YOU SEVER THOSE TWO AND SEPARATE THOSE TWO, YOU NO LONGER HAVE A COHERENT SEXUAL ETHIC. AND ANYTHING GOES. AND HE PREDICTED IT AND PEOPLE ROLLED THEIR EYES AND THAT WOULD NEVER HAPPEN. LOOK! WE’RE LIVING IT!>>Fr. Pacwa: I REMEMBER THINKING, I AGREED. I HAD NO PROBLEMS WITH HUMANA VITAE. AND I SAID, MAYBE I THINK HE’S OVERSTATING THE CASE THAT’S GOING TO MAKE MORE ABORTIONS AND INCREASE SAME SEX ISSUES, AND DIVORCE AND ALL KINDS.>>Guest: WELL, IT’S AMAZING HOW QUICKLY IT HAPPENED.>>Fr. Pacwa: HOW QUICKLY. AND CHURCH PEOPLE, NOT ONLY DISAGREED WITH HUMANA VITAE, THEY BEGAN TO LIVE OUT THIS SEPARATION OF SEX FROM PROCREATION, AND A LOT OF THE SCANDALS IN THE CHURCH ARE LIVING THAT OUT, THAT REBELLION AGAINST HUMANA VITAE IS WHAT FOLKS HAVE BEEN LIVING OUT.>>Guest: AND WHEN THEY ARE COMPROMISED, YOU END UP WITH A SITUATION OF CLERICALISM, WHERE THE LAITY AND THE CLERGY BOTH AREN’T LIVING THE LIVES THEY SHOULD BE LIVING. BUT THERE’S A TACIT UNDERSTANDING BETWEEN THEM. YOU DON’T BOTHER US, AND WE WON’T BOTHER YOU.>>Fr. Pacwa: RIGHT. RIGHT. AND I THINK THIS IS A DECLINE. THE ROMANS MADE THAT SAME SEPARATION THAT YOU DISCUSSED BEFORE IN TERMS OF THE BREAKDOWN OF THEIR FAMILY. THEY HAD ISOLATED SEX. THEY WANTED A LOT OF SEX –>>Guest: YES.>>Fr. Pacwa: AND THERE’S LOTS OF PORNOGRAPHY ALL OVER THE WALLS OF POMPEII AND HERCULEAN.>>AND THE LITERATURE IS ABOUT LITTLE ELSE.>>Fr. Pacwa: THE LONGER ROMANS WROTE PLAYS AND SOME OF THE FIRST PLAYS WERE INTERESTING, KIND OF IMITATING THE GREEKS. BUT THEY RAN OUT OF GOOD IDEAS. SO THEY JUST TALKED ABOUT SEX BECAUSE YOU ALWAYS GET A LAUGH OUT OF THAT, AND YOU GET AN AUDIENCE. SO, WE’VE SEEN THE SAME DECLINE IN THE QUALITY OF OUR ENTERTAINMENT INDUSTRY. YOU PUT IN SOME SEX IN THERE, YOU PLACE THAT IN THERE, AND THEN IT’S EASY. THE COUNTRY MUSIC AND OTHER FORMS OF MUSIC JUST PUT IN THE SEXUALITY AND IT’S A FORMULA THAT REQUIRES NO ARTISTRY.>>Guest: POMPEII REALLY FREEZES THAT MOMENT IN TIME, PORNOGRAPHIC WALLPAPER.>>NOTHING LIKE A VOLCANO TO DESTROY YOU IN THE MIDST OF YOUR LICENTIOUSNESS TO MAKE YOU AN ICON OF THAT.>>Guest: YES.>>Fr. Pacwa: AND THIS IS SOMETHING WE REMEMBER, AND WE SAY, ALL RIGHT. THIS MAY BE WHAT HAPPENED. THESE ARE SOME OF THE THINGS THAT WENT ON IN THE CHURCH AND THAT WE ARE DEALING WITH. WHAT DID THE EARLY CHURCH FATHERS DO, AND WHAT MUST WE DO TO BE THAT FORCE, THAT COUNTERACTS THE DECLINE IN THE CULTURE WITH THE IMPACT OF GOD’S GRACE IN THE TEACHINGS OF JESUS CHRIST.>>I THINK THAT IT REQUIRES CLARITY IN TEACHING FOR THE SAKE OF THE PEOPLE WHO ARE IN THE CHURCH. WE HAVE TO COMMUNICATE VERY CLEARLY WHAT WE EXPECT OF A CHRISTIAN LIFE, WHAT CHRIST EXPECTS OF OUR LIVES. ALL RIGHT. THAT HAS TO BE COMMUNICATED VERY CLEARLY AND I DON’T THINK IT HAS BEEN. I DON’T THINK THAT HUMANE VITAE, THE MESSAGE NEVER GOT OUT. I WAS GROWING UP DURING THAT TO IT. AND IT WAS NOT COMMUNICATED CLEARLY. DISSENT WAS COMMUNICATED CLEARLY IN THE NEWS MEDIA.>>Fr. Pacwa: RIGHT. AND THE MEDIA, FIRST OF ALL, THOUGH, THAT PRIESTS WERE SPEAKING OUT IN DISSENT AGAINST A PAPAL ENCYCLICAL, HUMANA VITAE. THE NIGHT IT WAS PUBLISHED, AND THAT NIGHT, IT WAS ON A SUNDAY WHEN IT WAS PROMULGATED. THAT NIGHT THERE WAS A NEWS CONFERENCE BY THEOLOGIANS UP IN NEW YORK CITY. THEY WERE RUNNING IT DOWN. THAT’S NEWS. BUT THEN IT’S ALSO SOMETHING THAT THE CONTEMPORARY MEDIA ITSELF IS GANGBUSTERS IN FAVOR OF ABORTION. YOU KNOW, I’VE HEARD PEOPLE SEEM TO EXAGGERATE BY SAYING ABORTION IS THE SACRAMENT OF THE PROGRESSIVE PART OF CULTURE. BUT IT’S NOT JUST SO MUCH AN EXAGGERATION.>>Guest: NO.>>Fr. Pacwa: I REMEMBER ONE EX-CATHOLIC, A PROFESSOR OF THEOLOGY, EVEN AFTER SHE LEFT, AND SHE WROTE THAT, YOU KNOW, A CEREMONY TO CELEBRATE ABORTION AS A SACRAMENT.>>Guest: AND ANY TIME YOU TOUCH ON THESE IDEAS OF FAMILY AND REPRODUCTION, YOU TOUCH A NERVE. YOU TOUCH A NERVE. THAT’S WHAT’S HAPPENED TO THE CHRISTIANS. READ THE LIVES OF THE EARLY MARTYRS, WOMEN MARTYRS. WE FIND CERTAIN CLASSES, ONE CONSECRATED VIRGINS WHO WERE EXPOSED AS CHRISTIANS BECAUSE THEY REFUSED A MARRIAGE PROPOSAL. AND THE ROMANS TENDED TO MARRY THEIR WOMEN OFF, THE FEW WOMEN WHO MANAGED TO SURVIVE.>>AND THEY HAD NO QUALMS OF MARRYING OFF THEIR LITTLE GIRLS EITHER.>>11-YEARS-OLD, THAT SEEMED TO BE AN AVERAGE. WOW. THAT’S PRETTY YOUNG. SO, SOMEBODY IS TRYING TO FIND A WIFE, SOME RICH GUY. HE PROPOSES TO A CHRISTIAN GIRL. SHE SAYS NO. I’VE CONSECRATED MY VIRGINITY TO JESUS CHRIST. HE EXPOSES HER. THIS IS REVENGE. AND SHE DIES AS A MARTYR. ANOTHER CLASS OF MARTYRS, WOMEN MARTYRS IN THE EARLY CHURCH SEEMS TO BE WOMEN WHO CONVERTED TO CHRISTIANITY AND THEN REFUSED TO CONTINUE IMMORAL SEXUAL PRACTICES WITH THEIR HUSBANDS. THEN THE HUSBANDS WANTED TO GET RID OF THEM WITHOUT PAYING BACK THE DOWRY, RIGHT, SO THEY EXPOSED THEM AS CHRISTIANS SO THEY WOULD BE EXECUTED THAT WAY. AND THESE ARE ENTIRE CLASSES OF MARTYRS. WE SEE WHAT HAPPENS WHEN YOU TOUCH ON THESE ISSUES OF SEXUALITY AND REPRODUCTION. ROBERT LEWIS WILKIN WROTE A GOOD BOOK, THE CHRISTIANS AS THE ROMANS SAW THEM. HE TRIES TO ENGAGE THE ROMANS SYMPATHETICALLY. AND WHAT HE CONCLUDES, THEY WERE UPSETTING ALL OF THE ROMANS’ FAMILY VALUES. THE ROMANS WERE SAYING, YOU ARE MESSING UP OUR CUSTOMS, YOU ARE LIVING IN A WAY THAT’S DIFFERENT AND YOU WANT OUR WIVES TO LIVE DIFFERENT AND WE DON’T LIKE THAT. AND I THINK THAT’S WHAT’S HAPPENING TODAY, IT’S THE SAME DYNAMIC.>>AND I THINK WE SEE THIS FROM THE MEDIA. BUT AGAIN, WHAT WE THEN HAVE TO DO, AS CHRISTIANS, IS NOT SAY, WELL, WE DON’T WANT TO GET ANYBODY UPSET SO WE’LL BACK OFF. IS THAT THE RESPONSE?>>Guest: NO. WE HAVE TO BE KIND. AND WE HAVE TO BE KIND IN THE WAY WE STATE THINGS, BUT WE HAVE TO STATE THEM. AND WE HAVE TO STATE THEM CLEARLY. SOMETIMES KINDNESS STINGS, RIGHT? WHEN I GO TO THE DOCTOR, HE HAS MY BEST INTEREST AT HEART. BUT SOMETIMES HE STINGS ME, RIGHT?>>Fr. Pacwa: YEAH. AND THIS IS SOMETHING THAT, YOU KNOW, WE AS CHRISTIANS NEED TO LAY OUT THAT THIS IS OUR CHRISTIAN FAITH, AND OUR CHRISTIAN MORALITY.>>Guest: YEAH.>>Fr. Pacwa: AND NOT ONLY THAT, WELL, WE DO IT DIFFERENTLY THAN YOU. YOU HAVE YOUR WAY AND WE HAVE OURS AND WE LIVE TOGETHER I’LL DO MY THING AND YOU DO YOURS, AND I’LL DO MINE. AND WE’RE SAYING THE WAY THE CULTURE IS REVERTING BACK TO THE ROMAN STYLE IS GOING TO BRING DOWN CULTURE, GOING TO — IT’S SELF-DESTRUCTIVE.>>Guest: AND IT WILL MAKE YOU UNHAPPY.>>Fr. Pacwa: YEAH, IT WILL MAKE YOU MISERABLE.>>I SUSPECT THAT YOU ARE ALREADY MISERABLE.>>WHEN I SEE THEM ON SOME OF THE NEWS PROGRAMS, YOU KNOW, THEY DO SEEM PRETTY MISERABLE. IT’S HARD TO WATCH SOME FOLKS IN THE NEWS WHEN THEY TALK ABOUT RELIGION, NOT JUST THE SCANDALS. BUT IN THE SCANDALS, WE HAVE TO HAVE A LANCING OF THAT BOIL AND A CLEANSING, A CLEANING OUT OF THE INFECTION. AND ALL THE WAY AS HIGH AS IT GOES OR AS LOW AS IT GOES. THAT’S IT. BUT THAT’S CHRISTIAN, THAT THERE MUST BE THOROUGH REPENTANCE. IF SOME OF THE BISHOPS ARE ACTING LIKE JUDAS ISCARIOT WHO HIMSELF WAS A BISHOP THAT DENIED CHRIST, FOR MONEY. WELL, THEN, WE HAVE TO SAY, THIS IS A JUDAS ISCARIOT. AND IF PRIESTS ARE DOING THAT, WE HAVE TO SAY THE SAME. BUT THEN, WE ALSO HAVE TO BE, YOU KNOW, THAT’S DEALING WITH THE PROBLEM. WE HAVE TO HAVE A POSITIVE IMPACT ON WHAT WE SAY TO THE CULTURE AND BE CONSISTENT BECAUSE THIS, THE GOSPEL IS SALT THAT WILL PRESERVE CULTURE FROM ITS OWN DECAY.>>AND I WANT TO EMPHASIZE, NOT TALKING ONLY ABOUT WHAT PUNDITS ARE SAYING, OR WHAT THE MEDIA PEOPLE ARE SAYING, CHRISTIANS IN THE MEDIA ARE SAYING. I’M TALKING ABOUT THE WAY WE LIVE. I’M TALKING ABOUT WHAT WE SAY AT THE WATER COOLER AT WORK. HOW WE LIVE DAY TO DAY AND HOW WE INTERACT WITH THE PEOPLE IN OUR WORK PLACE, ARE WE SHOWING THEM A BETTER WAY? ARE WE SHOWING THEM A LIFE THAT THEY WOULD WANT TO HAVE? ARE WE COMMUNICATING THE KIND OF HAPPINESS THAT COMES FROM LIVING A LIFE THAT’S IN TUNE WITH THE NATURAL LAW, WITH GOD’S LAW.>>Fr. Pacwa: YEAH. AND THIS MEANS THAT WE BRING OUR MORALITY, WHAT WE KNOW. AND THIS IS WHY IT’S IMPORTANT TO REREAD THE SECTION IN THE CATECHISM ON THE TEN COMMANDMENTS. BECAUSE THOU SHALL NOT STEAL INCLUDES ISSUES, LIKE, YOU CAN’T BRIBE POLITICIANS SO THAT YOU GET A BUILDING PERMIT.>>Guest: YES.>>Fr. Pacwa: OR SOME OTHER FAVOR. YOU HAVE TO BRING THE TEN COMMANDMENTS INTO YOUR BUSINESS. YOU HAVE TO BRING IT INTO YOUR FAMILY. YOU HAVE TO BRING IT INTO YOUR POLITICS. THIS IDEA, WELL, THAT’S MY RELIGION. NO. NO. YOU BRING THE MORAL TEACHING OF JESUS CHRIST INTO THE WAY WE VOTE. AND THE WAY WE PROMOTE ISSUES OR GO AGAINST ISSUES. THIS MUST BE EVERYDAY LIFE.>>THAT’S HOW THE ROMAN EMPIRE CHANGED. IT CHANGED BECAUSE SO MANY OF THESE PEOPLE CAME OVER TO THE CHRISTIAN WAY OF LIFE. AND WHEN THEY DID, THEY MADE AN IMPRESSION. EVEN GALEN, THE PHYSICIAN, WHO DIDN’T HAVE A USE FOR CHRISTIANITY, AS A PHILOSOPHY. HE SAID, SEEMS MORE OF A SUSPICION BUT HE ADMIRED THE CHRISTIANS ACCORDING TO THEIR LIVING AND THEIR PRINCIPLES AND NOT ONLY THAT, THEIR COURAGE OF FACING INTO REAL DANGER. CHRISTIAN DOCTORS, PHYSICIANS WENT IN AND TREATED PATIENTS WHEN IT WAS DANGEROUS TO DO SO. WHEN THEY WOULD TAKE THE DISEASE UPON THEMSELVES BY DOING SO. AND HE SAW THAT, HE ADMIRED THAT. PEOPLE NEED TO SEE WHAT ORDINARY CHRISTIANS ARE DOING SO THAT THEY CAN ADMIRE IT. AND WANT IT FOR THEMSELVES.>>Fr. Pacwa: RIGHT. YOU LOOK AT, IN THE EARLY CHURCH, THERE WERE CHRISTIANS WHO WOULD GO TO THE GARBAGE DUMPS EVERY NIGHT LOOKING FOR CHILDREN BECAUSE THE ROMANS WOULD TAKE THEIR CHILDREN, AND IF THEY DIDN’T WANT A BABY, THOUGHT IT WAS DEFECTIVE, THEY PUT IT IN THE GARBAGE DUMP. AND THEY THEY COULD EXCUSE IT. AND YOU KNOW, IF IT HAD GOD’S SMILE UPON IT, THEY WOULD SAY, MAY A SHE-WOLF COME ALONG.>>AND THROUGH THE EYES AND MOUTHS OF THE CHRISTIANS WHO PICKED THEM UP BEFORE THE SLAVE TRADERS GOT THEM TO SELL THEM INTO SLAVERY. AND THIS WAS VERY MUCH THE ROLE OF THE CHURCH. AND THAT’S WHY WE ALSO INVENTED NOT ONLY THE HOSPITAL, BUT THE ORPHANAGE AND THE UNIVERSITY. AND I MEAN, BRINGING OUR FAITH INTO THE UNIVERSITY.>>AND THE HOSPICE, AND HOSTEL. ALL OF THESE INSTITUTIONS THAT WERE THERE FOR SACRIFICIAL GIVING FOR THE SAKE OF ANOTHER PERSON. THESE THINGS DID NOT EXIST BEFORE CHRISTIANITY. AND I DON’T KNOW THAT THEY CAN EXIST APART FROM CHRISTIANITY.>>Fr. Pacwa: AND WE SEE TODAY THAT FOLKS WHO ARE IN THE SECULAR UNIVERSITIES HAVE LESS FREEDOM OF SPEECH OR THEIR OWN DIGNITY THAN THEY DID IN THE MEDIEVAL TIMES. THEY MAKE THESE FOLKS IN THE MODERN UNIVERSITY MAKING THE INQUISITION LOOK GOOD! THIS SOMETHING THAT WE WANT TO SEE TO OVERCOME. AND I WANT TO POINT OUT THAT YOU HAVE A WEB SITE. IT’S CALLED FATHERS OF THE CHURCH DOT COM. IT’S FATHERS OF THE CHURCH, DOT, COM. AND YOU CAN LEARN A LOT MORE. YOU HAVE THE READINGS OF THE FATHER OF THE CHURCH.>>I HAVE READINGS AND LINKS TO MY BOOKS THERE AT THE WEB SITE.>>Fr. Pacwa: AND YOU CAN GO TO ewtn.com/RELIGIOUS LIBRARY, THE DOCUMENTS LIBRARY TO FIND OUT MORE ABOUT THE FATHERS. AND ALSO, THIS BOOK, HOW CHRISTIANITY SAVED CIVILIZATION AND MUST DO SO AGAIN. BY MIKE AQUILINA AND IT’S AVAILABLE AT ewtnRC.com. 7190. AND ALSO BY JAMES PAPANDREA. AND NOW, IF YOU WANT TO HAVE SOME IDEAS WHAT YOU CAN DO, THIS IS NOT A BAD BOOK TO HAVE, HOW CHRISTIANITY SAVED CIVILIZATION AND MUST DO SO AGAIN. NOT A BAD BOOK TO HAVE. THANK YOU SO MUCH NOR JOINING, MAY ALMIGHTY DRY GOD BLESS YOU IN THE NAME OF THE FATHER, SON AND THE HOLY SPIRIT. DO KEEP US IN BETWEEN YOUR GAS BILL, ELECTRIC BILL AND CABLE BILL BECAUSE WE GET A LOT OF BILLS ESPECIALLY IN THE SUMMER MONTHS. AND WE NEED YOUR HELP A LOT. GOD BLESS YOU AND THANK YOU VERY MUCH. [APPLAUSE] [MUSIC]

4 thoughts on “EWTN Live – 2019-08-29 – 08/28/19 Mike Aquilina

  1. The only way the Catholics can transform society is by converting non-Catholics to Our Lord and His One True Catholic Church. This should be our main focus. Everything else will flow from that.

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